A serious question: religion?

[nipponman]

Oh. So basically 和 cannot be used to connect clauses (what I thought) but can be used to connect verbs together (what I didn't know) Thanks elina, those links were very helpful.

nipponman

[elina]

I have one question:

Christianity: forgiveness and charity to one's enemies

Buddhism: 宽容kuan1 rong2 / toleration, be lenient; 忍让ren3 rang4 / be forbearing and conciliatory

I think these are great moral character. And can you people really conduct your behavior like these? To be honest, sometimes I can’t. I have a good memory: I always remember who are kind to me; and I simply can’t forget some hurting caused by someone. It’s a kind of 恩怨分明 en1 yuan4 fen1 ming2. I think it is no good, and want to change myself. I really want to learn from you people. Is there a “secret” to achieve forgiveness and charity to one's enemies or宽容? Anyone can make an answer? TIA!

[gougou]

I simply can’t forget some hurting caused by someone

But that is good. If you forgot, you'd let the the same people hurt you over and over again. Just what you should do is try and minimize the hard feelings you may hold against them.

To take a trivial example: say you lent somebody money and he didn't give it back to you. You should not hate him for that, but unless you can afford it, you should not lend him money again.

I believe that forgiveness is one of the virtues most needed today, and I hope you can get there. It is hard to give detailed instructions on how to achieve it, but, you're Chinese, so if I may ask, what do you think about Japanese? I have found this to be an interesting topic in relation to forgiveness. When I brought this up, some Chinese didn't seem to value the idea of forgiveness so much anymore...

[elina]

gougou, sometimes I can’t believe you are ONLY 22 years old (Is this polite to comment on a gentleman’s age in western culture? I know maybe it’s not good for a lady). You seem to be more well-advised than your age, and a kind of philosopher.

you're Chinese, so if I may ask, what do you think about Japanese?

IMO, it depends. On the one hand, of course I hate the War and Japanese crime in the War, and cannot forgive; on the other hand, if I meet a Japanese in my life who is a good person, I can make friends with him/her in deed, i.e. 对人不对历史，也不对国籍 / think highly of the individual, neither the history, nor the nationality.

[gougou]

对人不对历史，也不对国籍

If you hold this opinion, then you are well on your way already. Then maybe examine something that affects you more directly; think of the last time somebody treated you badly, and what your opinion and behavior toward that person are now.

Is this polite to comment on a gentleman’s age in western culture?

Well, I don't know much about gentlemen, but for me personally, it's no problem. Especially if you do it this way around, people should feel flattered (so thanks ). Were you to say "I can't believe you are already 22 years old", people might not be too happy...

[Battosai]

I have one question:

Christianity: forgiveness and charity to one's enemies

Buddhism: 宽容kuan1 rong2 / toleration, be lenient; 忍让ren3 rang4 / be forbearing and conciliatory

I think these are great moral character. And can you people really conduct your behavior like these? To be honest, sometimes I can’t. I have a good memory: I always remember who are kind to me; and I simply can’t forget some hurting caused by someone. It’s a kind of 恩怨分明 en1 yuan4 fen1 ming2. I think it is no good, and want to change myself. I really want to learn from you people. Is there a “secret” to achieve forgiveness and charity to one's enemies or宽容? Anyone can make an answer? TIA!

In Buddhism they are indeed highly valued qualities. Whether one can generate them out of sheer will is debateable. The Buddha then instructed the practitioner to be constantly aware of the reality of the moment. This way one can see the arising of negative emotions and their cause. According to Buddhism the fact that one is aware (and we are talking about a very deep awareness here) of these negative, unskilful emotions is enough to uproot their causes. It is therefore more effective to devote one’s energy to being constantly aware of the reality of each moment than to force oneself to act according to some preconceived ideals.

Having said that, this is not a license to act unskilfully. If a negative emotion arises it is advised not to act on it but to observe it. If in our observation we find that we are full of hate and negativity ,then we must not reinforce that by thinking more negative thought like ‘I’m a terrible person, I’m so full of hate’. Just observe. With time and practice we will see that the negative emotions don’t stay as long as they used to. Sometimes they do not come up at all. One day, perhaps, we realise that there is very little negativity in us even when faced with very difficult situations.

So I think the Buddha and Jesus both promote the same values, but It seems to me that the Buddha gave more detailed directions on how to achieve this inner transformation.

May all beings be happy

[Song You Shen]

So I think the Buddha and Jesus both promote the same values, but It seems to me that the Buddha gave more detailed directions on how to achieve this inner transformation.

On the contrary, Jesus gave a ton of details on forgiveness. First of all, we are "to forgive other's as Jesus first forgave us." It is not just to forgive our enemies, but also to forgive our friends, our family and ourselves. What is the purpose of unforgiveness? In your heart you hate and you desire for revenge. God says "vengence is mine"... that mean's He's in control. I forgive my enemies, though it can be difficult to do, because I know that God is ultimatly in control. Christ is our example in everything. He said to not only forgive your enemies, but to love them. What is something that can ALWAYS destroy unforgiveness and hate? Love. True, genuine love is more powerful than the strongest hate. We overcome our weaknesses to forgive with love. For my enemies, I forgive them because I love them. I desire deeply that God reveals Himself to them. Hate is produced because of fear... and I do not fear my enemies.

Does this mean I forget what was done? No, you can never forget, not even God forgets. This is because it's not about forgetting. When you forget, it is not that you are removing the memories of what happened, but rather, you are no longer holding it against the person that hurt you. Furthermore, you never hold it against them if future problems arise. To make an example: A husband and wife are together for 10 years. The husband goes out and cheats on the wife. The wife finds out and they discuss it. The husband is sincerely sorry and wishes to make amends. The wife forgives the husband because of the love she has for him, but how can she forget what the husband did? She can't, but she doesn't hold it against him by never trusting him when he goes out. She never holds it against him in arguments. She doesn't carry it with her as a "card to play" when something goes wrong. She will never use his mistake against him. That is what forgetting is. Does this make sense?

Youshen

[elina]

It is nice to listen to somebody who actually knows what he is talking about (gougou’s saying, and I agree with him). Maybe it will be like what shibo77 said: people (Battosai and Youshen) just go with what they are taught and what they are familiar with, and they have good reasons. 不过，我要说，有时候重要的不是结果，而是过程。现在谈结果还为时尚早，但仅仅是过程就让我学到了许多 / But I’d like to say, sometimes the process is more important than the result. It’s too early to talk about the result now. And I have already learned a lot only from the process…

Battosai, would you please explain the meaning of “Whether one can generate them out of sheer will is debateable”. I’m afraid I could not understand, thanks! And I’m interested in your “detailed directions”, but do not understand clearly, let’s say:

1. when a negative emotion (say hate or angry) is arising, then stop here and no more reinforce it

2. observe it

3. And then how? Here do you mean 时间能治愈一切 / time can help?

First of all, we are "to forgive other's as Jesus first forgave us."

It’s really a good reason for forgiving, and it’s touching to my heart. The example which you used clearly explains that love can always destroy unforgiveness and hate, I agree with you in deed. 但有时明白道理是一回事，而能按照道理去做又是另一回事 / But sometimes people understanding the truth is a case, while people conducting their behavior according to the truth is another case. It is really difficult to “not only remove the memories of what happened, but also no longer hold it against the person that hurt you, and furthermore never hold it against him/her if future problems arise”. 这简直太累了，并且需要强大的毅力 / It’s simply so difficult, and it needs real strong willpower. So on the one hand, I really want to change myself, and on the other hand, sometimes I have a “lazy” thought: why should I act as a “sage”? If I can be the original me before changing, the feeling will be comfortable. Are you “lazy” sometimes? (this question is also for Battosai ) Do you understand my meaning? And Youshen, I’m curious about your tolerant limit or the power of your “true and genuine love”, may I ask:

In your example about husband and wife, if you were the wife, and husband is NOT sincerely sorry and DOES NOT wish to make amends, what would you say?

[Song You Shen]

It’s simply so difficult, and it needs real strong willpower. So on the one hand, I really want to change myself, and on the other hand, sometimes I have a “lazy” thought: why should I act as a “sage”? If I can be the original me before changing, the feeling will be comfortable. Are you “lazy” sometimes? (this question is also for Battosai ) Do you understand my meaning? And Youshen, I’m curious about your tolerant limit or the power of your “true and genuine love”, may I ask:In your example about husband and wife, if you were the wife, and husband is NOT sincerely sorry and DOES NOT wish to make amends, what would you say?

There is a difference between being able to remember, and dwelling on something. I can remember how I've been hurt by loved ones, but I do not dwell on those memories. If you dwell on how someone hurts you it only festers and causes hatred and resentment to arise. I can see how it seems like there might take a lot of will-power to do this, but it really doesn't. You can control what your mind thinks, you do it all day long, and this is no different. It's a choice, will you choose to dwell on what happened, or will you choose to let it go? You will never forget the memories, but you don't need to dwell on them. Do you understand? I am not sure I fully understand the "lazy" thoughts you were talking about.

I don't know how much tolerance I have, I don't think we ever know until we are in a circumstance that will demonstrate it. However, I do know that my tolerance increases. And I know that my goal is to live as Jesus lived. They killed Him with the most humiliating and gruesome torture of that time, and it says "He loved them unto the Death." I aspire to be like that, to love unto the death. That even if I am killed by those around me, I still love. That is the power of true love. Not even the threat of death, or death itself can overpower genuine love. Hope that answers that question.

To answer the last question, i would pray. The bible does not approve of divorce. However, if the other person decides to have a divorce, you are ok to divorce that person, because it is that person who wants the divorce (this is discussed well in the gospels). If the husband is not sorry, and doesn't care about it, it is only a matter of time before he divorces the wife. During this time, I'd be praying that God would save the husband and repair the relationship.

Youshen

[gougou]

why should I act as a “sage”?

In fact, acting as a sage can be bad at times, because it will make you appear weak to people who then might try to exploit your "weakness". This is the main theme in the play "The Good Person of Szechwan" by Bertolt Brecht (which, despite the name, has little to do with China). I would strongly recommend reading that for some inspiration on this issue.

They killed Him with the most humiliating and gruesome torture of that time, and it says "He loved them unto the Death." I aspire to be like that, to love unto the death

I recently read a book by the Dalai-Lama, in which he told the following: In his refuge in India, he received a monk who had just fled from Tibet, where he was held captive and tortured for a long time. "During all this time, what were you afraid of most?" the Dalai-Lama asked. The answer: "Not to love my oppressors anymore."

[Long Zhiren]

Sorry. I've been away for a little bit.

Elina (in #139):

"But what I heard from Christian is: God is the only and true super power (I cannot express this sentence very well, but I indicate the meaning), if you do not believe in God, you must be wrong."

That's correct. Semantically, it can be more precise though. I would phrase the second half as: "We were conceived and born wrong. We are by nature poor, miserable, sinful and unclean creatures. If we believe that Christ died to save us from this condition, God doesn't see anything in us but His Holy Son. By faith, we are counted Christ's righteousness and saved." It's not being closed-minded. It's expressing a truth.

On a side note, how is everybody (but me) generating quotes in their posts in little grey boxes? I don't know how to do it. Thanks.

"认为我就是一个愚拙的、软弱的人，所以我才要寻求宗教的帮助."

神 所 要 的 祭 就 是 憂 傷 的 靈 ； 　 神 啊 ， 憂 傷 痛 悔 的 心 ， 你 必 不 輕 看 。(詩 篇 51:17)

A contrite heart as yours, seems evidence of repentance. However, repentance does not save. Believe that Christ went to the Cross to absolve you. Be baptized. (washed in His blood) Christ's own words, through the waters of baptism, work the forgiveness and salvation that you seek.

你 們 各 人 要 悔 改 ， 奉 耶 穌 基 督 的 名 受 洗 ， 叫 你 們 的 罪 得 赦 ， 就 必 領 受 所 賜 的 聖 靈 ( 使 徒 行 傳 2:38 )

"我都感到特别费劲"

That's normal experience. A first immersion is the same way—VERY TIRING! One day, you'll wake up and realize that your dreams were in English.

Forgiveness is even more difficult...

Elina (#143):

"And can you people really conduct your behavior like these? To be honest, sometimes I can’t. I have a good memory: I always remember who are kind to me; and I simply can’t forget some hurting caused by someone. It’s a kind of 恩怨分明"

Christianity states that, on this side of heaven, we will never be able conduct ourselves purely and holy. Cast those burdens upon Christ:

28 凡 勞 苦 擔 重 擔 的 人 可 以 到 我 這 裡 來 ， 我 就 使 你 們 得 安 息 。

29 我 心 裡 柔 和 謙 卑 ， 你 們 當 負 我 的 軛 ， 學 我 的 樣 式 ； 這 樣 ， 你 們 心 裡 就 必 得 享 安 息 。

30 因 為 我 的 軛 是 容 易 的 ， 我 的 擔 子 是 輕 省 的 。(馬 太 福 音 11)

Some modern sects of Christianity state (like Buddhism) that one can indeed be sinless every now and then. However, in terms of historic, orthodox Christianity, that is heresy. If you were without sin, you would not need Christ. So natural progression to Battosai's message (#147)...

Battosai (#147):

"Whether one can generate them out of sheer will is debateable.. According to Buddhism the fact that one is aware (and we are talking about a very deep awareness here) of these negative, unskilful emotions is enough to uproot their causes...If in our observation we find that we are full of hate and negativity ,then we must not reinforce that by thinking more negative...With time and practice we will see that the negative emotions don’t stay as long as they used to."

A few thoughts.

Unlike Buddhism, Christianity states that forgiveness is impossible, apart from Christ. In other words, "on this side of heaven," we will never be able to forgive. We're well aware of how difficult it is to forgive and forget just one grievous wound. Consider that Christ has forgiven every single one of yours and that of every single other person throughout history. That is the incredible weight that He bore on the cross, with God condemning all of those sins to death and hell. Christ became sin. He became our sin.

Emotions will be with us. If you have the discipline to manage them like Battosai mentions, that is to your benefit, but is still nothing compared to what Christ has done for us.

And unlike Buddhism again, Christianity has nothing to do with emotions. Some modern sects of Christianity, again, are nothing but emotions. They are heresy. Avoid those who focus on manipulative technique (emotion) instead of objective truth. That's what happened to 洪秀全. Emotions go up and down with the waves. Christianity is founded on the objective Word of God that is solid like a rock and never changes. Even if you're full of doubts and confusion, the Word of God remains constant.

And still unlike Buddhism, the peace from the angst of negative emotions, is not dependent upon one's ability. Regardless of anyone's capacity to discipline his/her spirit, Christ is there for them, all of them. There is no discrimination between rich/poor, smart/dumb, strong/weak, etc. In Christ, everyone is the same.

並 不 分 猶 太 人 、 希 利 尼 人 ， 自 主 的 、 為 奴 的 ， 或 男 或 女 ， 因 為 你 們 在 基 督 耶 穌 裡 都 成 為 一 了 。加 拉 太 書 3:28

Song You Shen ( #148 )

"On the contrary, Jesus gave a ton of details on forgiveness."

Extra thought: Jesus' work on the cross is all forgiveness.

[gougou]

On a side note, how is everybody (but me) generating quotes in their posts in little grey boxes? I don't know how to do it. Thanks.

Wow, the topic discussed most in this thread, after religion, is quoting...

When replying, click on the button with the speech bubble. This will insert the QUOTE tags into your reply, between which you can enter (copy) the text you want to quote.

[Battosai]

Long Zhiren said:

And unlike Buddhism again, Christianity has nothing to do with emotions. Some modern sects of Christianity, again, are nothing but emotions. They are heresy. Avoid those who focus on manipulative technique (emotion) instead of objective truth. That's what happened to 洪秀全. Emotions go up and down with the waves. Christianity is founded on the objective Word of God that is solid like a rock and never changes. Even if you're full of doubts and confusion, the Word of God remains constant.

Yes .Buddhism and Christianity might very different. Though both of them are classified under religion, I think they perhaps deal with slightly different human needs and experiences. Buddhism deals solely with the problem of human happiness. The Buddhist is concerned with how to live life to the fullest and be happy. According to Buddha relaying on external sources for salvation is bound to end up in disappointment and misery. Perhaps this is what Jesus meant when he asked his followers to find the ‘God within’ (perhaps not,).

As I know very little about Christianity I will avoid making comparisons between the two religions (like I did, very unskilfully in my last post)

elina said:

Battosai, would you please explain the meaning of “Whether one can generate them out of sheer will is debateable”. I’m afraid I could not understand, thanks!

What I meant is that I doubt that we can act with forgiveness and charity just because we want to. Most people think that getting angry or using violence is not desirable, yet they still do. Many people would like to be more forgiving but fail to. Therefore I suggest that even though these qualities are desirable, most people need more than just effort for them to act that way. Am I clear?

Hope so…

And I’m interested in your “detailed directions”, but do not understand clearly, let’s say:

1. when a negative emotion (say hate or angry) is arising, then stop here and no more reinforce it

2. observe it

3. And then how? Here do you mean 时间能治愈一切 / time can help?

My detailed directions are sadly not very good. It is important to understand a little about Buddhist psychology first. Unfortunately I am not a gifted writer and this subject is highly complex. If you want to truly understand it, I suggest you read something more serious than my posts. Still I will make an effort to briefly explain the basics, please feel free to ask any questions and remember that this is my own interpretation:

Negative emotions arise as a result of ego. The ego is the part of your mind that you see as ‘me ‘, ‘myself’, ‘I’. The ego is an illusion, it arises because of ignorance, it’s a little like the movie in the cinema where the mind take individual still pictures and connect into one entity. In the same way the brain takes all our different experiences and relates it to one unchanging imaginary entity- the ego. Not only we create this ego but we also identify with it. Since the ego has no existence of its own, its natural state is fear of death –its own death. To protect itself it craves experiences that affirm it and reject experiences that threatened it. The ego judges all experiences according to their relevance to him. Lets say I (=my ego) view myself as a great Buddhist, reading a post that reject Buddhism will threaten this identity and so I’m likely to react with a negative emotion (which will affirm my ego). On the other hand reading a post that says Buddhism is great will strengthen my identity and so I will crave more posts like that. This explains why people are so attached to habits, even habits that don’t seem to have any pleasurable effects. Since the habit originated as something that affirmed the ego, the person seeks to repeat the experience all the time, though the experience itself might not be pleasurable. This dependence on outer sources for affirmation is the source of our misery. Something good happens we crave for more and end up disappointed, something undesirable happens we react with aversion. Nothing happens and we are bored.

Now sensations arise in the body all the time, thoughts arise in the mind all the time. The ego reacts to these thought and sensations with lust or aversion and this creates a preconditioning in the mind .So when these sensations or thoughts arise again ,the reaction will be the same or even stronger.

How can we brake this vicious cycle? With awareness. An emotion arises in the body, but you just observe it , you do not classify it as ‘bad’ or ‘good’ or ‘irrelevant’ but just observe. If you practice well you can break the habit pattern of the mind. If you break the habit pattern of the mind, you will not react with negativity. In fact you will see that in that life is constantly flowing and changing in the most amazing and unthinkable ways.

After you uprooted the source of negativity, your mind can be balanced and peaceful. When the mind is calm and peaceful it can penetrate and see the ultimate reality of the ego. It can see (or rather feel) that the barrier of ‘me’ and ‘other’ exists mostly in the ego. It can see that the person who abused me did it out of ignorance. It can see that me and my enemy are one. When you can feel the oneness of all humanity then forgiveness and charity just flow naturally without being ‘forced’.

[Long Zhiren]

Battossai (#154): [My quote button doesn't seem to work for some reason.]

"The Buddhist is concerned with how to live life to the fullest and be happy. According to Buddha relaying on external sources for salvation is bound to end up in disappointment and misery. Perhaps this is what Jesus meant when he asked his followers to find the ‘God within’ (perhaps not,)."

Actually, just the opposite, according to Christianity, external source of salvation is the only possibility. Internal and worldly sources don't have any chance whatsoever. That is precisely why God sent His only Son.

耶 稣 说 我 就 是 道 路 、 真 理 、 生 命 ； 若 不 藉 着 我 ， 没 有 人 能 到 父 那 里 去 。( 約 翰 福 音 14:6 )

Christian joy has very little to do with "heartfelt emotions." Jesus was full of "joy" when He suffered in agony on the cross. What the world considered a most shameful defeat, the Christian finds the greatest victory--victory over death, sin and the devil is assured. The term "happy" doesn't even really occur in the Bible.

However, in heaven...

神 要 擦 去 他 们 一 切 的 眼 泪 ； 不 再 有 死 亡 ， 也 不 再 有 悲 哀 、 哭 号 、 疼 痛 ， 因 为 以 前 的 事 都 过 去 了 。( 启 示 录 21:4 )

The Christian is freed to "carry his/her cross," to live out their vocations of love in the world as good son/daughter, brother/sister, father/mother, husband/wife, neighbor, good citizen, protecting soldier, diligent government official, productive blue/white-collar worker, etc. Before heaven, God's love manifests itself in the world when a person carries out these God-given love-motivated works. These works are full of pain, effort and sorrow (cross carrying); but they are full of God's love. Obviously, being an ascetic monk doesn't accomplish any of this.

Christianity says that these works don't get one to heaven. The Christian does not do them because he/she "must." He/she does them because he/she "wants" to, knowing full well that the earth is a viscious battleground full of sin and sorrow.

[elina]

I am not sure I fully understand the "lazy" thoughts you were talking about

.

I mean, for example:

一个人面前出现两条路，第一条路是绝对正确的路，但太难走了；而第二条路看起来似乎也没什么错，那么这个人就有可能因为"lazy"而去走第两条路 / there are two roads before a person, the first road is absolutely right, but it is too difficult to go along; the second road seems to be not wrong, so this person will possibly choose the second road to go because of "lazy". I indicate the first road is Christianity or Buddhism, the second is atheism (here I do not dare to say every religious person is certainly more perfect than every atheist. But I am sure if I believe in a religion, I will be more perfect than now, because I am serious). I think I am a good person, even if not perfect, if I stop here, 我觉得也不错了 / I think it is OK. 如果我想要改变，就会比较累 / If I want to change myself, it will be very tiring. That’s why I said: “on the other hand, sometimes I have a “lazy” thought: why should I act as a sage? If I can be the original me before changing, the feeling will be comfortable”. And I said: “are you “lazy” sometimes? (this question for you people who are religious)”. I mean: 因为路太难走了，你们曾经动摇过吗？/ because the road is difficult to go, have you people ever swayed/vacillated or been infirm? But when I write here, I think maybe I already get the answer. 因为我还没有真正地相信一个宗教，所以只看到了难处，而没有真正体会到它的好处，其实宗教是可以给人力量的 / Because I do not really believe in a religion yet, so I just see the difficulty, but have not experienced the “benefit” in deed, in fact, a religion can give a person power. Am I right to answer my question?

Long Zhiren, thank you very much for the Chinese translation of the Bible! Would you please also add the English original if you quote from the Bible in the future, I’d like to see how the sentence is in English to improve my English. Thanks. Maybe you could try again to make a quote like this:

ABC

When replying a post:

1. select the content which you want to quote using your computer mouse, for example: ABC

2. press the yellow button on the left to the button #, which appears “Wrap

tags around selected text”

3. in the first

, add =elina like this:

(no space within the square brackets)

That's normal experience. A first immersion is the same way—VERY TIRING!

That’s the case on the one hand. And on the other hand' date=' 我恨不得能用中文跟你们讨论问题，或者，我恨不得我的英文再好一些 / I’m too anxious to discuss with you people with Chinese, or, I’m too anxious to make my English more and more better. Every time when I write something here, I have to translate “what you people said” into Chinese, and then have to translate “what I will say” into English. Maybe you people only spend half hour to write a post, but for me, it is more than two hours’ work!

How I wish my colleague Buddhist could attend this discuss, but she does not know English, as our company’s accountant. 即使她懂英语，但她是那么地与世无争，她根本不会到这来参加讨论；但同时，她又是那么地“润物细无声run4 wu4 xi4 wu2 sheng1”，就是她让我对佛教有了渴望/ Even if she understands English, she is so no dissension with others, and will by no means discuss here; but at the same time, she has so imperceptibly influence, it is her who changes me invisibly and intangibly, as well as lets me have the aspiration on Buddhism. Although I am an absolute layman on Buddhism, now I will try my best to say something:

At first, thanks a lot for your so “detailed directions”, Battosai! I think I understand your meaning, and I could call it 无我 wu2 wo3. I think your “detailed directions” are very helpful in deed. 但是我要说，这些未免太注重技巧了 / But I’d like to say, it SEEMS to be thinking more highly of the individual’s skill. Battosai, I think you are a person with strong willpower and good ability. But if there is a person who is less than you in those fields, how can he/she achieve the goal? 我认为在一个宗教里，一个人只要虔诚地信它，就应该得到拯救。宗教应该看重的是人的心灵，而不是技巧和能力。当然也不能一点方法都没有，我所说的这些方法，是指，比如：要象爱自己一样地去爱你们的邻居等等 / I consider in a religion, as long as a person believes in it devotionally, he/she should get salvation. A religion should think highly of the heart and the soul of a person, but not the skill and the ability. And of cause it’s impossible to be without a method, I indicate the method, for example, you should love your neighbor as you love yourself, etc. 在宗教面前，应该是人人平等的 / In a religion, everyone should be equal. There is no discrimination between rich/poor, smart/dumb, strong/weak, etc (Long Zhiren’s saying, I absolutely agree with him). 我认为佛教中的禅宗是一个为聪明人准备的宗教 / I think Zen in Buddhism is a religion which provided for smart people. But if I misunderstand you, Battosai, I’m sorry for that! Now I do not yet find a good expressing way in English on 净宗 / Pure Land in Buddhism. So I leave my explanation on净宗 in the future. I think maybe 净宗 is more like a religion.

Obviously, being an ascetic monk doesn't accomplish any of this.

And Long Zhiren, please no hurry, I will argue this with you OR agree with you in next year, after I do some reading on Buddhism. Because at present I have no tons of time to read relevant books, as I said I am busy on redesigning our website these months in my former post.

[Long Zhiren]

From Elina (#156 )

Long Zhiren, thank you very much for the Chinese translation of the Bible! Would you please also add the English original if you quote from the Bible in the future, I’d like to see how the sentence is in English to improve my English. Thanks. Maybe you could try again to make a quote like this:

我自己說:

啊呀! 好極了!! 我能用 quotes 了!!

Actually, the hardware platform that I use at work doesn't support the utility. From almost anywhere else, I can...

I don't intend to be mean or lazy, but I'd say 你自己翻.

Please let me know if you can access this website:

http://biblegateway.com/

Once there, you can look up a passage and it will link you back and forth to "official translations" of any passage in many languages. 简体 或是 繁體 都可以.

I guess it could be a good English language learning exercise.

我也能翻 但是聖經根本不是英語的. There are so many (啊! 太多!) 英語的 translations as well. Several are quite good. 我喜歡 King James Version (KJV or NKJV), New International Version (NIV) or New American Standard Version (NASV). Others are absolutely terrible. 很遺憾, 每一個英語的 translation 有點差. 我最近讀 希伯來語 跟 希臘語 所以我自己慢慢的發現. There's actually a few different 中文的 translations. Biblegateway 只有一种中文的 translation. 那种是 "Union" translation. "Union" translation 超過一百年老了! 那也不是口語. It was translated to 中文 by a Jewish scholar who had only studied 中文 for TWO years before doing this. There's newer 中文的 translations, but my 中文 is not good enough to determine just how good any of them are.

Every time when I write something here, I have to translate “what you people said” into Chinese, and then have to translate “what I will say” into English.

The real challenge is to stop translating and just to "think" in the language. Thinking in "Chinglish" 是一個很好的 start. When I'm studying Greek and Hebrew, my teacher annoys me because he says the ancient languages are dead 所以我們不一定要浪費時間 trying to speak or pronounce them. Being a rebel, I've begun using the modern pronunciations and practicing some modern Greek and Hebrew with native speakers of those languages.

[elina]

Wow, the topic discussed most in this thread, after religion, is quoting...

The real challenge is to stop translating and just to "think" in the language. Thinking in "Chinglish" 是一個很好的 start.

Just as what gougou said, the topics in this thread are really discussed quite widely, at first religion, secondly quoting, thirdly good methods on learning foreign languages, maybe in the future, the fourth, the fifth… In fact, I read “what you people said” without actually translating them into Chinese, maybe just "think" in English, but some vocabularies need to be looked up in 金山词霸, and some expressing methods which I really do not understand; But when I write “what I will say”, I’d like to add some Chinese to avoid in case my English translation is not exact, you people maybe understand the Chinese original to help communication. Sometimes I write my post directly in English, and sometimes I do translate my post from the Chinese original.

Please let me know if you can access this website:http://biblegateway.com/

我也能翻' date=' 但是聖經根本不是英語的.[/quote']

This website: http://biblegateway.com/ can not be opened here, it shows: 找不到服务器. And I thought you translated your quoting from the Bible in English version into Chinese in your former posts, so I thought it was a 顺便 / “by the way” to also add the English original. Now I understand I was wrong. Thanks again for your kindness.

Long Zhiren, I’m jealous that you can understand so many foreign languages. I’m curious how you can manage your time, and I find a funny answer that maybe you always keep on learning different foreign languages 而从来不干别的(I mean, of course, in your spare time)

[Jun Heng Clinic]

HI Ellen and friends

I thought I would over the next few weeks 'sing the song of Taoism' and give you some bite-sized chunks from the Dao De Jing, in case they stimulate thought. I'll pick bits that particularly speak to me. Battosai, I think you might see some parallels with your Buddhist faith.

I've copied these quotes from a website that I have just today discovered

http://afpc.asso.fr/wengu/wg/wengu.php?l=Daodejing

I strongly recommend you look at this website; it's really beautiful. They quote several different translations of the Dao De Jing on a chapter-by-chapter basis. I will quote for you the Chinese and DC Lau's English translation (only because this is the only translation that I have used in the past; I do not claim that it is the best).

Chapter 2

天下都知道美, 是因为有丑恶, 天下都知道有善是因为有不善。

因而“有”和“无”, “难”和“易”, “长”和“短”, “高”和“低”, “音”和“声”, “前”和“后”都是相对产生的。

所以圣人以无为的态度来处理世事, 实行不言的教导。

任万物兴作而不加主宰; 生长万物而不据为己有; 作育万物而不恃己能; 功业成就而不自居。

正因为不居功, 所以有千秋功业, 万古传芳。

The whole world recognizes the beautiful as the beautiful, yet this is only the ugly;

the whole world recognizes the good as the good, yet this is only the bad.

Thus Something and Nothing produce each other;

The difficult and the easy complement each other;

The long and the short off-set each other;

The high and the low incline towards each other;

Note and sound harmonize with each other;

Before and after follow each other.

Therefore the sage keeps to the deed that consists in taking no action and practises the teaching that uses no words.

The myriad creatures rise from it yet it claims no authority;

It gives them life yet claims no possession;

It benefits them yet exacts no gratitude;

It accomplishes its task yet lays claim to no merit.

It is because it lays claim to no merit

That its merit never deserts it.

Chapter 8

有道德的人就像“水”一样, 水有三种特性, 第一是能够滋长万物, 第二是本性柔软, 顺自然而不争, 第三是蓄居流注在人人所厌恶的卑下之处。这些性格最类似于道的特点。

水处于卑下的地位, 有德的人为人谦下。水渊深达, 有德的人虚怀若谷。水施万物, 有德的人博施而不望报。水质清明, 有德的人所言至诚。水因势利导, 顺流而下。有德的人善于利用客观规律, 调动一切积极因素, 把握时机, 因而无往而不胜。

这一切都是由于不争, 因而也没有过失。

Highest good is like water.

Because water excels in benefiting the myriad creatures without contending with them and settles where none would like to be, it comes close to the way.

In a home it is the site that matters;

In quality of mind it is depth that matters;

In an ally it is benevolence that matters;

In speech it is good faith that matters;

In government it is order that matters;

In affairs it is ability that matters;

In action it is timeliness that matters.

It is because it does not contend that it is never at fault.

Chapter 9

持容器去盛水, 太满了就要溢出来, 因此要时刻而止。刀磨得太锋利, 就容易折断。

金玉满堂, 不能永保。生活糜烂, 自取灭亡。人在成功以後, 要急流勇退, 这才合于天下之道 ―― 生而不有, 为而不恃, 功成而弗居。

Rather than fill it to the brim by keeping it upright

Better to have stopped in time;

Hammer it to a point

And the sharpness cannot be preserved for ever;

There may be gold and jade to fill a hall

But there is none who can keep them.

To be overbearing when one has wealth and position

Is to bring calamity upon oneself.

To retire when the task is accomplished

Is the way of heaven.

All the best to you all, David

(Ps: Hi Ellen. The parcel arrived on Wed 5th October. Thank you very much for this! Well within your quoted time - and all books, CDs and VCDs are in good condition. My daughter is enjoying the Zhong1 Hua2 Qin2 Xue2 Gu4 Shi4. I’m having difficulty translating this title. Could you tell me how it should be translated? All the best, David)

[elina]

How I love this small thread in deed! 在这个浮躁的世界上，我知道有这么一个地方可以滋润我心田，启迪我心灵，感觉真好！(I cannot translate this, let me give the PIN YIN: zai4 zhe4 ge4 fu2 zao4 de5 shi4 jie4 shang4, wo3 zhi1 dao4 you3 zhe4 me5 yi2 ge4 di4 fang1 ke3 yi3 zi1 run4 wo3 xin1 tian2, qi3 di2 wo3 xin1 ling2, gan3 jue2 zhen1 hao3). Maybe when I really believe in a religion in the future, I can get this feeling everyday.

David, thanks for your quotes from Dao De Jing, it's really beautiful, and please continue these, let's share what "particularly speak to you". Actually I have already followed your advice in your e-mail, and read Dao De Jing from the following:

http://www.iselong.com/1/1121.htm

http://www.thetao.info/tao/simplified.htm

And I also like these:

老 子: 「道 德 经」 : 第八章

　　上善若水，水善利万物而不争。处众人之所恶，故几于道。

　　居善地，心善渊，与善仁，言善信，正善治，事善能，动善时。

　　夫唯不争，故无尤。

Chapter 8

The highest good is like that of water. The goodness of water is that it benefits the ten thousand creatures; yet itself does not scramble, but is content with the places that all men disdain. It is this that makes water so near to the Way.

And if men think the ground the best place for building a house upon,

If among thoughts they value those that are profound,

If in friendship they value gentleness,

In words, truth; in government, good order;

In deeds, effectiveness; in actions, timeliness-

In each case it is because they prefer what does not lead to strife,[1]

And therefore does not go amiss.

[1]Even ordinary people realize the importance of the Taoist principle of 'water-like' behaviour, i.e. not striving to get on top or to the fore.

第 二 十 九 章

将 欲 取 天 下 而 为 之 ， 吾 见 其 不 得 已 。

天 下 神 器 ， 不 可 为 也 ， 不 可 执 也 。

为 者 败 之 ， 执 者 失 之 。

是 以 圣 人 无 为 ， 故 无 败 ﹔

无 执 ， 故 无 失。

夫 物 或 行 或 随 ﹔ 或 嘘 或 吹 ﹔

或 强 或 羸 ﹔ 或 载 或 隳 。

是 以 圣 人 去 甚 ， 去 奢 ， 去 泰 。

Chapter 29

If any one should wish to get the kingdom for himself, and to

effect this by what he does, I see that he will not succeed. The

kingdom is a spirit-like thing, and cannot be got by active doing. He

who would so win it destroys it; he who would hold it in his grasp

loses it.

The course and nature of things is such that

What was in front is now behind;

What warmed anon we freezing find.

Strength is of weakness oft the spoil;

The store in ruins mocks our toil.

Hence the sage puts away excessive effort, extravagance, and easy

indulgence.

第 三 十 一 章

夫 兵 者 ， 不 祥 之 器 ，

物 或 恶 之 ， 故 有 道 者 不 处 。

君 子 居 则 贵 左 ， 用 兵 则 贵 右 。

兵 者 不 祥 之 器 ， 非 君 子 之 器 ，

不 得 已 而 用 之 ， 恬 淡 为 上 。

胜 而 不 美 ， 而 美 之 者 ， 是 乐 杀 人 。

夫 乐 杀 人 者 ， 则 不 可 得 志 于 天 下 矣 。

吉 事 尚 左 ， 凶 事 尚 右 。

偏 将 军 居 左 ， 上 将 军 居 右 ， 言 以 丧 礼 处 之 。

杀 人 之 众 ， 以 悲 哀 泣 之 ， 战 胜 以 丧 礼 处 之 。

Chapter 31

Now arms, however beautiful, are instruments of evil omen,

hateful, it may be said, to all creatures. Therefore they who have

the Tao do not like to employ them.

The superior man ordinarily considers the left hand the most

honourable place, but in time of war the right hand. Those sharp

weapons are instruments of evil omen, and not the instruments of the

superior man;--he uses them only on the compulsion of necessity. Calm

and repose are what he prizes; victory (by force of arms) is to him

undesirable. To consider this desirable would be to delight in the

slaughter of men; and he who delights in the slaughter of men cannot

get his will in the kingdom.

On occasions of festivity to be on the left hand is the prized

position; on occasions of mourning, the right hand. The second in

command of the army has his place on the left; the general commanding

in chief has his on the right;--his place, that is, is assigned to him

as in the rites of mourning. He who has killed multitudes of men

should weep for them with the bitterest grief; and the victor in

battle has his place (rightly) according to those rites.

第 三 十 三 章

　 　知 人 者 智 ， 自 知 者 明 。

　 　胜 人 者 有 力 ， 自 胜 者 强 。

　 　知 足 者 富 。

　 　强 行 者 有 志 。

　 　不 失 其 所 者 久 。

　 　死 而 不 亡 者 寿

Chapter 33

He who knows other men is discerning; he who knows himself is

intelligent. He who overcomes others is strong; he who overcomes

himself is mighty. He who is satisfied with his lot is rich; he who

goes on acting with energy has a (firm) will.

He who does not fail in the requirements of his position, continues

long; he who dies and yet does not perish, has longevity.

第 四 十 九 章

　 　 圣 人 常 无 心 ， 以 百 姓 心 为 心 。

　 　 善 者 ， 吾 善 之 ﹔ 不 善 者 ， 吾 亦 善 之 ﹔ 德 善 。

　 　 信 者 ， 吾 信 之 ﹔ 不 信 者 ， 吾 亦 信 之 ﹔ 德 信 。

　 　 圣 人 在 天 下 ， 歙 歙 焉 ， 为 天 下 浑 其 心 ，

百 姓 皆 注 其 耳 目 ， 圣 人 皆 孩 之 。

Chapter 49

The sage has no invariable mind of his own; he makes the mind

of the people his mind.

To those who are good (to me), I am good; and to those who are not

good (to me), I am also good;--and thus (all) get to be good. To

those who are sincere (with me), I am sincere; and to those who are

not sincere (with me), I am also sincere;--and thus (all) get to be

sincere.

The sage has in the world an appearance of indecision, and keeps

his mind in a state of indifference to all. The people all keep their

eyes and ears directed to him, and he deals with them all as his

children.

第 七 十 九 章

和 大 怨 ， 必 有 余 怨 ﹔

报 怨 以 德 ， 安 可 以 为 善 。

　 　 是 以 圣 人 执 左 契 ， 而 不 责 于 人 。

有 德 司 契 ， 无 德 司 彻 。

　 　 天 道 无 亲 ， 常 与 善 人 。

Chapter 79

When a reconciliation is effected (between two parties) after a

great animosity, there is sure to be a grudge remaining (in the mind

of the one who was wrong). And how can this be beneficial (to the

other)?

Therefore (to guard against this), the sage keeps the left-hand

portion of the record of the engagement, and does not insist on the

(speedy) fulfilment of it by the other party. (So), he who has the

attributes (of the Tao) regards (only) the conditions of the

engagement, while he who has not those attributes regards only the

conditions favourable to himself.

In the Way of Heaven, there is no partiality of love; it is always

on the side of the good man

第 八 十 一 章

　 　 信 言 不 美 ， 美 言 不 信 。

　 　 善 者 不 辩 ， 辩 者 不 善 。

　 　 知 者 不 博 ， 博 者 不 知 。

　 　 圣 人 不 积 ， 既 以 为 人 己 愈 有 ，

既 以 与 人 己 愈 多 。

　 　 天 之 道 ， 利 而 不 害 ﹔

圣 人 之 道 ， 为 而 不 争 。

Chapter 81

Sincere words are not fine; fine words are not sincere. Those

who are skilled (in the Tao) do not dispute (about it); the

disputatious are not skilled in it. Those who know (the Tao) are not

extensively learned; the extensively learned do not know it.

The sage does not accumulate (for himself). The more that he

expends for others, the more does he possess of his own; the more that

he gives to others, the more does he have himself.

With all the sharpness of the Way of Heaven, it injures not; with

all the doing in the way of the sage he does not strive.

I’m thinking hard on my poor explanation about Pure Land in Buddhism, and will maybe let it come out in early next month (maybe not! I fear my poor explanation about Pure Land in Buddhism can do harm to the understanding of other people, so maybe next year after my reading!). Sometimes I really consider at present thinking is no useful any more, what I should do is reading on Buddhism at first (just as what Battosai said: If I want to truly understand it, I should read something more serious).

(PS: David, Zhong1 Hua2 Qin2 Xue2 Gu4 Shi4 中华勤学故事 / Chinese Diligent/Assiduous/Industrious Stories)

[Long Zhiren]

>Long Zhiren, I’m jealous that you can understand so many foreign languages. I’m curious

>how you can manage your time, and I find a funny answer that maybe you always keep

>on learning different foreign languages 而从来不干别的(I mean, of course, in your spare

>time)

I simply focus on my strongest two foreign languages French & Chinese.

However, lately, I'm struggling very seriously with 希伯來語 跟 希臘語 because although I am Christian, I have many questions about doctrine but am convinced over and over again how rich and true it is. I will test what the theologians say and write. I believe that within a person's capacity, that person should never stop asking questions and never stop thinking critically, especially Christianity. Any philosophy can be terribly dangerous if it ever focuses away from truth and on "technique." True things are not always beautiful and beautiful things are not always true.