Chinese learning system of polyglots

[Desmond]

plus..to see the look in ones eyes, when you start talking to him in his language sounding like a native, or close to native is a great feeling. the person realises what effort and time you must have spent on his culture and believe me.. if some brazilian would come up to me and he'd start discussing the world politics with me in fluent slovak with east-slovakian accent... I'd buy him a beer! hell.. I'd be so honoured.

This is interesting.... normally I try to understand something by relating it to my own situation. However, I don't feel the same way, at all, when a foreigner comes up to me speaking fluent English. I think this has something to do with English being the prevalent foreign language taught around the world. I'd be much more impressed to hear a foreigner speak any Slovak at all without being from around that area, nor having parents from that area. I see foreigners every day here speaking fluent English, and if I leave this country, I still see foreigners every day speaking fluent English.... so I don't see it as them wanting my culture, but just wanting the world's business.

When someone is born speaking a foreign language (ie. a Canadian who speaks Cantonese due to their parents) I also don't feel the way you described above. That's mostly because they learned it inadvertently, not for a strong desire, and not with a strong commitment.

Beside the two exceptions above, if a person learns a (non-English) language, not from their parents, it's pretty impressive!

[techie]

I have read many of your comments. Some of you come across as more opinionated than others about what works or doesn't. Learning languages to me have been almost like a love affair, passionate and refreshing every time I tackle a new language. And this passion has gone beyond the study of that language as I continuously begin to understand the new culture and nuances of the people in that culture. Ah, language is the best tool to leverage how you begin to move into that new culture. If you are interested in just learning a few words to impress others is like the computer lingo: "garbage in, garbage out"! This would then become a very stupid approach!!!

Also, I read in the comments that there are no methods to learn a language. Think again, there are as many methods as there are people in this world as somebody here has already mentioned. In learning languages I have even used progressive relaxation and the formulation of affirmations related to language. If someone were to tell you that they tried it and it did not work, then I will tell you that that person does not know the appropriate way of formulating the suggestions for enhancing your own memory. For managing large amounts of vocabulary learning, I have "mnemonics" (pegs and shortcuts in my head) for pronunciation and the acquiring of vocabulary. I even used Lozanov’s approach. I am not sure I am spelling his name correctly. But George Lozanov was a professor from Sophia University. He used stratetegies combined with "suggestopaedia" and music for the smooth transition of language learning acquisition. Individuals from different walks of life would be able to learn a foreign language with ease by listening to tapes which would combine tempo, sound and specific chamber music adapted for learning and absorption of material from the conscious to the subconscious level in a most comfortable manner.

I believe you can try as many methods but if your attitude and motivation are not there, your progress will tend to be very slow. Also if there is not learning language skills to begin with, if you have not the potential at all or the ability to emulate sound, you could try methods until you turn blue on the face and nothing might work.

There are also the personality characteristics: love people of all cultures. Be a good observer, be able to emulate gestures. I believe that learning a language also requires emulating how people move in talking that language. If you try to learn French and remain like a statue pronouncing the French words without using the hand gestures, the same with the Italian language, your words will come across as a lifeless imitation.

Would I prefer to learn just one or two languages instead of continuing to attempt to learn others, perhaps in a mediocre way? That also depends, I strongly believe, "all things are difficult until they become easy". I repeat "all things are difficult until they become easy". The first time you attempt to learn a new language it seems like an insurmountable task until you begin to speak those first few words, the more you become immerse in a language the better it will get. It also depends how you learn the language. Are you accustomed to sit in front of a class and go in unison with the rest of the students with the classroom repetitions? “Buenos dias maestro", "Ogenki desu ka?" "Wo shi meiguo ren". Eventually you will learn a few words but you might be burdened by always having to depend on the specific individual instructor's curriculum. You got to grab the language as if by the "horns" and run with it, become adventuresome and take risks. Language learning is a life commitment.

When immersed in the study of a new language, first you will be grappling with sounds and symbols that could become great obstacles if you do not know how to pace yourself. Try to get the feelings and the sounds under your skin as soon as possible. I still remember the first time I began to learn Japanese; I used to rent or buy Japanese movies and become mesmerized with the sound of the language. Even though the entire movie became a barrage of unrecognizable babble throughout many hours of movie watching, I was all the time allowing my ears to become accustomed to the new sound pretty much like a child does when he is exposed to his new language spoken by the parents. With time, I began to notice that there was a certain pattern and unison in this cacophony and my ears would begin to learn and get accustomed to that new invasion of sounds. Later when I actually sat down with a grammar book or any structured method of language from cassettes or any other language sources, it all began to make sense and the pronunciation would come in with ease. Read grammar books, obtain as many software programs that will assist you in that language and devote a large part of your computer hard drive for that new language in order to saturate yourself in this newly acquired way of thinking, because every new language is a different way of thinking. Associate with people fluent in the language in which you are interested and even begin to order and buy books in that language regarding your own topics of interest. I would rather know 20 languages in a mediocre way that to know one in a perfect way. To perfect a language it would take a good twenty years or more, and even longer. I know individuals fluent in their own language that have no notion of how they talk or how to express themselves.

Learning a language is not an isolated process but an integration of that language into whatever you are, your educational background, your own perspectives and interests, your ambitions and part of your own dreams. And then once a polyglot, never brag about it but use your newly acquired languages to read about as many different topics in that language as you can. Read books in chemistry, biology, language, gardening, because each of these new books will provide you with exquisite new fresh vocabulary to continue to enhance your language studies. Also, learning languages with a partner will become an exchange of gifts since you will both gain so much from the interaction from each other.

Bragging about the languages you speak will amount to nothing. Instead use the little of what you have already learned and continue to hone on those areas of the language you have found weak or defective. A mediocre language speaker is a person stuck at the same language level of learning and/or satisfied in remaining within the comfort of their newly-acquired language safety zone!

When I mentioned that I would rather know twenty (20) languages in a mediocre way, the word mediocre for me is at least some serious studying for at least five years. But those five years of learning will provide you with immense pleasure and confidence to continue to craft at the level where you are at. To me mediocre means that I am at an intermediate level already pushing to advance in a quiet way! Perhaps I have not ever even thought of the word "mediocre" to enter into your screen of thought in learning languages.

Perhaps I have gotten carried away but I have even bought cassettes that could regulate the pitch and the tone, I was able to speed up the listening to the highest level and the sounds of the taped material would sound like a fast "Donald duck" trying to talk back to you. Then I would combined that fast speed taping with the self-suggestion and affirmation of being able to slow down the absorbed material internally at a subconscious level and allowing my memory and mind to be in total sync. As crazy as this may seem many of this personal strategies were forcing me to "nurture" my own learning of languages... My lifetime experiences of learning languages have become unforgettable unique experiences which have not only enriched my own life but have in so many subtle ways changed my own global perceptions of the world. As Napoleon Hill, the great motivational speaker, used to say. "You think what you are, and you are what you think." As a result of my language studies I have beome a citizen of the world. At least, I think that way. It all boils down to doing different strategies and methods so as to gain perspective of your new language from different angles. Finally, whatever works for you might be totally ridiculous to others. Who cares, as long as you learn the language you want and for the person you need it. Overall, I value talking about learning languages because I have been there. Had I told you that to "study languages" all that it requires is to sit done or my own efforts in trying to "study languages" or that to work hard all that it requires is to "work hard" I might as well tell the rest of the readers in here that you are not worth my time to sit down and reflect upon my own difficulties and methods of learning I remember so that I can share it with you all.

I respect every language learner because I see in them inquisitive individuals like myself who have put some "sweat" equity in spending time learning and grappling with the difficulties of many teaching and learning methodologies before finding the one that suit his or her needs.

[Celso Pin]

after all these discussions, i name my method of study: (SORRY TO BE VULGAR AND RUDE)...

is the Pin Arse-Chair (or PAC) method: Pin put his Arse in the Chair and study it! it worked for digital electronics, for watercolor painting and now for chinese...

[Lugubert]

I love, and make my (rather comfortable) living out of, languages. So I don’t know where this rant will end.

Anyhow, I learned reading (my native Swedish, and on my own) at the age of 4. I was neither encouraged nor restrained at home. My father was a merchant navy captain, and I understood very early that knowing languages was a nice way of communicating with foreign (= interesting) people.

In school I had to (read: loved to) study English, German and French. I tried to enrol for Latin, but that wasn’t allowed for science students. Well, at least chemistry had a language of its own.

During my studying for an M.Chem.Eng, I had a summer of working in the Netherlands. After 1½ months, not previously knowing the language, I was sufficiently fluent in Dutch that some people asked if I was a native.

Later, I had negligible formal education in Spanish, but on one week’s vacation in Mexico or on several visits to the Canary Islands, I rarely have had to use English to make myself understood.

OK, I know, it’s not a case of my being exceptionally clever; I just had to pick the right genes from my parents. I’m thus deeply indebted to them, but I do try to make the most of it.

Trying to connect to the "Chinese" of the OP, one of the reasons that I’m into 汉语 is that I would love to know what’s happening when I learn a language. I’ve tried other non-European languages as well (like Arabic, Persian, Hindi), but I still don’t know how I should study them or how I have managed in the (not too many) really successful cases.

Another OP aspect: who’s a polyglot? The OP says 6 foreign languages. I won’t derail (now) by discussing definitions of "language", but refer to an acquaintance of mine, Erik Gunnemark, anytime being able to speak or even teach some 24 languages, and quite capable of using 26 more if you give him a month to rehearse. He personally knows or knew several superpolyglots like for example Prof. Pent Nurmekund (Estonia), who could translate from more than 80 languages. Erik’s criterion for the polyglot label is 10 languages. I’m at least fairly close to earning it.

There's a European (EU) scale of language proficiency. It supposes that language skills on all aspects are acquired in parallel to one another. I most vehemently disagree. I professionally translate texts on most conceivable subjects from English, German, Dutch (I suppose I could manage Afrikaans as well), Norwegian, Danish and French into my native Swedish. No big deal, just European Indo-European languages all of them, and moreover, I regard Swedish, Norwegian and Danish as dialects of Scandinavian anyway. When in Denmark or Norway, I speak Swedish, and resort to Scandinavian only if there seems to be a misunderstanding. (Note to a poster somewhere: I exclude Icelandic. I can’t even guess what language that is when hearing it spoken.) That scale sucks. Whenever possible, I for example avoid speaking or writing (the horror!) French, and I don’t translate from Spanish. (Compare my Mexico/Canary Is. experiences.) I manage some not too complicated translations from Chinese, but I wouldn’t dare to address a native in that language from fear that they might answer in Chinese…

[Ferno]

"scandanavian"? :?

[Lugubert]

"Scandinavian" isn't just a joke in Scandinavia. There is often a very good mutual understanding when we stick to our respective languages in a conversation. But there will of course be cases when somebody hasn't had enough exposure to the neighbour languages -- or simply doesn't care. Then there will be those who are sufficiently able, and will be mixing in words or phrases from the other language into their own. Such a mixture is often, very unofficially, named "Scandinavian".

For the three Scandinavian countries, it must be very rare indeed to find persons who are near to natively fluent in a neighbour language. They are too close. So, one way of admitting this problem is to speak "Scandinavian" when you're in fact stick to one language but mix in pieces the other one when understanding is threatened in a conversation.

[Language Guy]

This discussion is bringing up some interesting questions. What I want to know is where, when trying to assess how many fluent languages one speaks, does one's profiency reach fluency?

I live in Washington, DC. Several times I've been in a taxi cab with a Pakistani driver. The driver's English was pretty good. He spoke at a slow to normal speed, without having to pause for remembering words, except it rare cases. His grammar wasn't perfect, nor was his pronunciation, and his accent was quite heavy. But except for a few times, I could understand every word he said, and he could understand me. Given the chance, he and I could have talked for hours about very specific things. So the question is: Is he fluent in English? I would say yes. There wasn't one aspect about his English that was perfect, but must it be?

If this man could speak 8 languages with at least the proficiency he has in English, would he be a polyglot?

And on polyglot societies: if one has to vigorously test someone on a minimum lingual proficiency in a minimum amount of languages, I fail to see how such standards enrich the society. I'm guessing such a society would be based on love of language and culture; so does it matter if someone's vocabulary in one language is not good enough to be in your "special club"? If so, then it very much reminds of how athletic kids in elementary school look down upon the other kids because they're not "good enough".

[Aristotle]

Well, this is a coincidence.

I've just recently started learning Chinese (and at the moment I know slim to nil), and strolling about the web, I encountered this site (soon after being informed on another site that if I don't have a teacher or native speaker to help me, which I don't, I'll be doomed to an eternity of barely-intelligible pronounciation). I came to this thread and I read a question the answer to which was in a magazine I read the very same day! I hope the original poster is still watching this thread...

It's just a few lines about Sir Richard Burton, an English adventurer/explorer, apparently called "the first linguist", who spoke 29 languages and had a system which allowed him to learn a new one well enough for get around with, in two months.

First, he'd get a dictionary and a grammar book, where he underlined the words and forms he knew were important. Then he memorized them. He never worked more than 15 minutes at a time, so as not to tire the brain.

After a week, he would know at least 300 words, and then he'd read an easy-to-read book, in which he underlined all the words he wanted to remember. After reading the book, he'd go deep into grammar, learning all the minute details of it. Finally, he'd pick a book in a subject which interested him, and read it. After this, "the code was broken", and everything went quickly. If there was a new sound, he'd repeat it thousands of times each day, and every time he read something, he'd read it aloud, so as to improve memorisation and practice pronounciation.

Of course, it's probably easier when you're an explorer who gets a chance to talk every language with native speakers.

I hope this method is of help to someone. It contrasts wildly with the "natural method" I read about in another thread, though.

[Guest]

To language guy:

I agree, that there are many many people around the world with the ability to somehow understand and speak more than - say 5-6 languages. People in Luxembourg, North-east Slovenia, South Slovakia, Scandinavia, in the baltic countries.. even some street vendors in North African tourist centers, they of course are able to have a discussion in several languages but as you mentioned, the level of their language knowlege is poor, compared to those, who seriously study the language, or compared to natives. I am not saying this is a bad thing. it is wonderful. every next language a person knows..in any way..is only an enrichment . at least in my opinion. What I was trying to say was, that there are actually people, who either have been lucky and have talent or are devoted to language studying or both, that speak more than those 5-6 languages and are colse to native in all of them. (or at least in the first 6 of them). and those are the ones , that I was wishing could get to gether in the polyglot society.

to Aristotle:

what a wonderful post! thank you so much. Some of the things I was doing myself and the rest I will deffinetly try out. The 'study plan' of Mr. Burton as a whole seems well structured and experienced:-) thank you again.

[Lugubert]

Vlad, I should have responded earlier, but a major 3rd semester Chinese test took up most of my time for a while. I'm now trying to find out more on an existing society, Amici Linguarum, mentioned in this article. Please keep me posted on your plans for a polyglot society/association/club/whatever. Being retired, I might spend some serious time on a project like that.

[Aristotle]

You're very welcome, I'm glad I could help.

Speaking of Burton's method, is there anyone out there with a good list of 300 (or so) words one should definately know? I'm guessing the words would be reasonably similar in most languages (but hardly exactly the same), which is why I guess one could have a single list in English and then look it up in most other languages. Of course, a list of "the x most common words in Chinese", complete with translations, would be even better. Anyone encountered such a list?

[roddy]

I'm aware of something along these lines, Ogden's Basic English, which dates back to the first half of the last century. There's a list also. Not sure how good it is, but might be worth a look.

I also recall that during the Second World War the US or UK military came up with a very concise list of two or three hundred English words to teach to locals wherever they were stations (much simpler, of course, than teaching squaddies to speak foreign). I can't find any info about this list though.

Roddy

PS Sorry, didn't realise you were an arisotelian - you'll probably want the categorised list

[HashiriKata]

Learning languages to me have been almost like a love affair, passionate and refreshing every time I tackle a new language.

I may be wrong but I think to become a polyglot is probably not as difficult as to have many love affairs simultaneously.

[Guest]

This is probably the best language learning discussion I encountered thus far (at least for me, because it spins around topics that interest me at my stage of 'language learning' development)

I am working on such a list myself. allthough it is longer than 300 words.

while I was in Italy learning Italian, I had this idea to do such a list from the very beginning, but I was too lazy, so I'm doing it now. During the first weeks of learning, during discussions with friends, so many times I came across words, that I just needed to know, and they had to be translated to me. exactly these words are the essencial ones. I do not mean words like: father, mother, window, table and so on, but more 'complex' ones like: understand, hide, explain, guess, entrance, borrow...just to give a few

so.. basically now, I'm trying to get back to my language learning material from Italy and I've been working on this list since january. it is quite difficult to do it in such a retrospective way, because there are allways new words, that I come across , which I forgot.

I put together all the grammar needed in fluent Italian everyday speech too. I was also thinking of translating this 'basic vocab' list into other languages for future studies.

As I said, the list contains much more than 300 words. it is devided into verbs, adjectives, adverbs, nouns, grammar and misc phrases, which are very often used.

As soon as I get it done, I'll translate the whole thing into english and ask someone kindly to get it into chinese:-)

[Aristotle]

Roddy -- thanks, that's a good list. It's a bit large, but I'll try it out. If it's too large, I might cut it down a bit -- develop my own list.

Vlad -- if you ever finish that list of yours, it'd be great if you could post it, especially if you can get someone to translate it for you.

[Aristotle]

Hm, I just found a list of the 100 most common words in languages in general, from mindtools.com. Another lucky coincidence. Here's what it says on the page:

Tony Buzan, in his book 'Using your Memory', points out that just 100 words comprise 50% of all words used in conversation in a language. Learning this core 100 words gets you a long way towards being able to speak in that language, albeit at a basic level. The 100 basic words used in conversation are shown below:

1. A,an 2. After 3. Again 4. All 5. Almost

6. Also 7. Always 8. And 9. Because 10. Before

11. Big 12. But 13. (I) can 14. (I) come 15. Either/or

16. (I) find 17. First 18. For 19. Friend 20. From

21. (I) go 22. Good 23. Good-bye 24. Happy 25. (I) have

26. He 27. Hello 28. Here 29. How 30. I

31. (I) am 32. If 33. In 34. (I) know 35. Last

36. (I) like 37. Little 38. (I) love 39. (I) make 40. Many

41. One 42. More 43. Most 44. Much 45. My

46. New 47. No 48. Not 49. Now 50. Of

51. Often 52. On 53. One 54. Only 55. Or

56. Other 57. Our 58. Out 59. Over 60. People

61. Place 62. Please 63. Same 64. (I) see 65. She

66. So 67. Some 68. Sometimes 69. Still 70. Such

71. (I) tell 72. Thank you 73. That 74. The 75. Their

76. Them 77. Then 78. There is 79. They 80. Thing

81. (I) think 82. This 83. Time 84. To 85. Under

86. Up 87. Us 88. (I) use 89. Very 90. We

91. What 92. When 93. Where 94. Which 95. Who

96. Why 97. With 98. Yes 99. You 100. Your

(Extract reproduced from Use Your Memory by Tony Buzan with the permission of BBC Worldwide Limited, © Tony Buzan)

Though some of it doesn't apply to Chinese (the first one, for example), it seems like a pretty good list all in all. A good start. I don't suppose there's any industrious individual out there willing to translate it into Chinese?

[gato]

Kingsoft's automatic translator made quick work of it.

Here is your 100 list. It seems too little.

1. 一, 一 2. 在 3 之后. 再一次 4. 所有的 5. 几乎

6. 也 7. 总是 8. 而且 9. 因为 10. 在

11. 大的 12. 但是 13. (我)能/可以 14. (我) 来 15. 或/或

16. (我)发现 17. 最先的 18 个. 为 19. 朋友 20. 从

21. (我)去 22. 好 23. 再见 24. 快乐的 25. (我)有

26. 他 27. 你好 28. 这里 29. 如何 30. 我

31. (我)是 32. 如果 33. 在 34. (我)35. 持续

36. (我)相似的 37. 一点点 38. (我)爱 39. (我)制造 40. 多数

41. 一 42. 更多 43. 大部分 44. 很多 45. 我的

46. 新的 47. 没有 48. 不 49. 现在 50.

51. 时常 52. 在 53之上. 一 54. 只有 55. 或

56. 另外地 57. 我们的 58. 出自 59. 超过 60. 人们

61. 放置 62 。 请 63 。 相同的 64. (我)65. 她

66. 如此 67. 一些 68. 有时 69. 使 70 安静。 如此的

71. (我)72. 谢谢你 73. 那 74. 75. 他们的

76. 他们 77. 然后 78. 有 79 。 他们 80. 事物

81. (我)想 82. 这 83. 计时 84 。 到 85. 在

86. 提高 87 。 美国 88. (我)使用 89. 非常 90. 我们

91. 什么 92. 当 93. 哪里 94. 哪一 95. 谁

96. 为什么 97. 由于 98. 是的 99. 你 100. 你的

[malinuo]

I made the following list of 500 words when I used to interrail around Europe when I was younger. I used to do it one month a year for more than 12 years, so the list is an experienced guess, but it is targeted for this kind of travelling of course.

http://lewan.chez.tiscali.fr/uploaded/wordbook.zip

The encoding is bad for some languages, and the translations are far from authorised, but it worked for me. There is a separate list somewhere for numbers somewhere deep down on my harddisk.

[Lugubert]

For most everything, there's already someone who has done it on the web.

Case: numbers. Numbers from 1 to 10 in Over 5000 Languages

Case: Geographical (mostly) and other proper names (I've collected just so many pieces of paper, but haven't even managed to decide on what software to use to make oit accessible): for European cites, for example, there's Wikipedia.

Case: Chemical elements in umpteen languages, etymology, and more than most people ever would want: http://www.vanderkrogt.net/elements/

He who searcheth, looketh.

Thanks, malinuo. I'm looking into some lists on words and phrases. I'll be back.

[Aristotle]

Thanks, gato. I don't suppose Kingsoft's automatic translator translates to pinyin as well?

And malinuo, that's a great list. Too bad Chinese isn't in it, but I'm definately keeping it for future use. Also, it might have been nice to label the columns to see which one is which ...