Practicing Chinese with Chinese is impossible!!!

[gao_bo_han]

OK, I am exaggerating. But my other topics, such as "What are good resources for learning business Chinese?" have hardly gotten any responses, so I have to be a little controversial. Anyways, about never getting to practice...

Why is it that whenever I speak Chinese with people (in America, and sometimes in Taiwan when I was there), they almost ALWAYS, and I repeat quite nearly ALWAYS respond in English?! I mean, I have gotten in situations where I will speak for hours and hours with Chinese in Mandarin and can understand/make myself understand perfectly. So it isn't my Chinese that's the problem. Does anyone else have this problem? Before you respond keep in mind that

1. I never try to speak Chinese with Chinese in inappropriate situations. Only when they will not feel embarassed about it.

2. If a Chinese person walks up to me and speaks English, I always oblige them and speak English, no matter how poor their English is (because I know they want to practice).

I have tried language exchange partners at numerous times during my studies. In every situation it ended up with them speaking either complete English to me or Chinese with lots and lots of English interspersed. I mean, at this point in my studies it is CLEAR that I understand almost everything in regular conversations, and yet they insist on using English for even simple words!

Maybe I just needed to vent, but am I alone here? If I practice with people on the streets they respond to me in English, with language exchange partners they always insist on taking over the conversation into English.

[林彪]

Most Westernized Chinese, and especially Chinese-Americans, are proud of their ability to speak English. That is why, if you attempt to strike up a conversation with a Chinese American in Chinese, they will often feel insulted or embarrassed.

You should ask on Modelminority.com how Asian Americans feel when a foreigner approaches them trying to speak their language. They hate it.

[Quest]

You should ask on Modelminority.com how Asian Americans feel when a foreigner approaches them trying to speak their language. They hate it.

they hate the mock accents (i.e. ching chong ching cha waaaaaaaaaa), not if they really know how to speak chinese.

[Green Pea]

This is why learning Chinese is hard. It has nothing to do with tones or characters, but the opportunity to speak. I don't think you are exaggerating as this happens to me on a daily basis. I live in China, so my situation may be a little different in the sense that I feel no obligation to speak English here.

Here is how I deal with it. I just refuse to speak English to people. If people come up to me on the street and start speaking to me in English, I just look at them. If they insist, then I walk away. I will only speak to people who first address me in Chinese. Anyone who yells out "hello" to me, I ignore them. If I go to a restaurant or business and they insist on English, I leave. Sometimes, I am rude, insulting and humiliating. Like the other day. I went to a coffee shop and the guy insisted on responding to me in English. I yelled at him. The whole place stopped and stared. He was very embarrassed. I spend my money where people speak to me in Chinese.

Making friends. I don't make friends with people who only speak to me in English. I make friends with people who switch back and forth. Same goes for language exchange. If it isn't an exchange, then forget it. I even avoid making friends with other foreigners unless they speak in Chinese with me.

If people want to speak to me in English, then they pay me. My time is valuable.

Am I too hard on people? Probably, but I don't care anymore. I want to learn Chinese, and I don't learn if I get suckered into speaking English all the time. I just cringe when I see foreigners getting trapped into speaking English, especially for the simple, daily stuff. These people never learn Chinese. They make Chinese think all foreigners are willing to speak to them in English. Well, until they meet me, of course.

gao_bo_an, you just have to change the way you deal with people. It might not be fun, but learning Chinese is a full contact sport.

[confucius]

I think the language of Asian Americans is English. Worked for me when I lived in Hawaii for one year.

I would never start speaking Chinese or Japanese to somebody on US soil unless I heard them speak it first.

[gao_bo_han]

Thank you all for your helpful replies. Let me respond to each of you in turn. But first, I should clarify a few things.

When I say "Chinese", I DO NOT refer to Chinese-Americans. I don't want to debate that issue, it is merely a choice of words. By "Chinese", I here refer to someone who was born and raised in a Chinese speaking country, and (in this case) came here in adulthood. I should have made that clearer and I apologize for the confusion. I am aware that my definition is debatable, but again I only use it for clarity in this situation (no insult to all of you Chinese-Americans who consider yourself Chinese, really).

Secondly, as I said, I am careful about when and where I do it. For example, I was recently in a training session with a co-worker who works in a different office than me. She is from China (born and raised), and is completely fluent in Mandarin, Cantonese, and English. During a break, she stepped out into the hallway to take a walk, and I accompanied her (we were alone). I told her that I had been wanting to speak to her, because I need to practice my business Chinese so that I can communicate better with clients. I said perhaps A FEW WORDS of Mandarin and she said (in English) "Ooooooooooh, your Chinese is very good!!!!!!!!!". And she absolutely refused, I mean REFUSED to speak Mandarin with me. She's a very nice woman and everything, but I felt insulted and frustrated.

I think that pretty much responds to 林彪 and confucius' replies actually. I am aware that Asian Americans don't like it when people approach them with "their" language and so I never do it. I only approach people I hear speaking in Mandarin, and only in the appropriate situations. NOTHING HELPS, and I mean NOTHING. I'm sure lots of us here are in the same boat. I spend hours and hours and hours every single week reading books, memorizing characters, listening to tapes, watching Chinese movies, more reading, more tapes...month after month, year after year. And when it finally comes down to practicing this language we have so earnestly studied? We say TWO WORDS of Chinese and Chinese people tell us that we speak very very good Chinese and then insist on continuing the conversation in English.

As for you Green Pea, I feel you man. You have done everything that my frustrations very nearly drove me to do. When I was in Taiwan my situation was almost no different than in America. I completely consumed myself with study. My scholarship allowed me to do so, and so, I did. But when I wanted to speak with the locals? Nothin' doin'. English, English, English. Here was my strategy friend: I learned a few words of Swedish, and passed myself off as a Swede. I wore slacks instead of blue jeans (as I notice Europeans do), and I perfected my Swedish accent in English, which I feigned as being very poor. I frustrated everybody so much that they finally just switched to Mandarin with me. That didn't last long. I am not a deceptive person by nature, and I talk way too much to ever be a good liar. So it was back to the old struggle. You got balls man, but keep this in mind: if you humiliate people who speak to you in English, then others have the right to humiliate you if you speak to them in Chinese.

My thing is that if someone wants to approach me and speak in English, then fine. I will respect their wish. However, the favor is SO RARELY returned that sometimes I think about just throwing my hands up and walking away from this language.

Peace out everybody.

[林彪]

Thank you all for your helpful replies. Let me respond to each of you in turn. But first, I should clarify a few things.

....

However, the favor is SO RARELY returned that sometimes I think about just throwing my hands up and walking away from this language.

Peace out everybody.

Wow. Maybe you should try going to the Chinese mainland, since fewer people speak English there. Personally, I've never been to China or Taiwan and never have had much of an opportunity to speak Chinese to anyone either. Even my Chinese language tutor speaks English to me when we are out of class.

It probably has to do with the fact the English is becoming the international language, while Chinese is so incredibly difficult to learn. So much more Chinese people know English than the other way around.

I also think a lot of Chinese are ashamed of their native language - they think it's ugly, useless, and an impediment to economic and academic success. So that is probably part of the reason as well.

On a side note, the French are the exact opposite. They LOVE it when a foreigner speaks French to them. I've studied French and have lived in Quebec, and I can tell you that when you speak English to people in Quebec, they scorn you and don't talk to you. But when you speak French to them they become instantly super-friendly.

[Quest]

I also think a lot of Chinese are ashamed of their native language - they think it's ugly, useless, and an impediment to economic and academic success. So that is probably part of the reason as well.

I think the opposite is true.

also, most Chinese people in the U.S. are not mandarin speakers. If you try to speak Mandarin to them, they would probably reply in English. And the Chinese accent Americans are most familiar with is 台山话, which imo, is not too pretty a dialect. If I were to rank Chinese dialect pleasantness, 台山话 would probably be among the lowest ranks.

[kentsuarez]

First, there are so many Chinese who do not speak English that I have never had much of a problem with finding them. Second, with conversation partners, all you have to do is agree on a strict rule with them: say, 45 min. in one language then 45 in the other, and then enforce it. This has always worked for me; it also prevents me from being lazy and switching back into English for the hard stuff. I have to struggle to explain it in Chinese, and get corrected. Try it!

[eric]

HEHE

the trick to being a foreigner in China is pretending you dont speak english; pretend you are french or maybe from some obscure country.

about speaking Chinese in the USA:

chinese people often mix english with chinese after they have lived here for a while because it's easier sometimes. also, if they are not using Chinese on a daily basis, they might not even know the right words in Chinese (but really, sometimes it's just easier to use an english word).

Don't let it bother you that they speak english either maybe you could politely ask if they could speak chinese to you? It might be welcomed, depending on how you put it right? I'm sure many of them will oblige you, but remember that they are trying to learn english too! so sometimes you'll wana speak english with them.

Otherwise, all I can say about learning Chinese is that you really have to spend some time in China. The rate at which you can learn when you're immersed in the language is astounding compared to how you learn here. I learned Chinese for about 7 years in the US, but I think when I spent 9 months in China I tripled my vocabulary, improved my accent, got a firm grasp on grammar, and gained a natural feeling for the language (well, mostly). It really can't compare to learning here.

If you do go, I would also recommend at least 2 years 1 year is really not enough.

[beijingbooty]

my chinese langauge exchange partners talk chinese to me no problems.

I find it is only when they doubt your ability to understand, that they use English instead of mandarin.

I have only experienced the problem of a language exchange partner using english all the time once, and that was just becasue he was trying to practice his english. He was trying to dominate the conversations.

[NQBlues]

I know exactly what you are talking about. I don't like it either when a Chinese conversation is interspersed with English words. My feeling is this, if someone wants to converse with me in English, fine, do so by all means. But if they want to speak to me in Chinese, I expect them to complete the conversation in Chinese. Just don't say something like wo3 jue2 de2 ta hen3 NICE suo2 yi3 I GAVE HIM yi ge4 KISS (translated from Cantonese). To me, that is disrespectful. Also, someone mentioned that some Chinese-Americans consider it an insult if someone approach them and speak to them in Chinese. I guess these people are either too ashamed of Chinese culture/language or they want to be assimilated into American culture so badly that speaking Chinese would somehow make them less Americanized. No wonder the hard-core Chinese people call them "bananas". Here in the States, I have started to notice a trend where Chinese parents refuse to speak Chinese with their children at home. From their standpoint, it is critically importantly for their children to master American-accented English at a young age. Another reason is that they use their children to practice English. So it is becoming more and more common to see ABCs who are totally detached from or oblivous of their Chinese heritage.

[geraldc]

I don't like it either when a Chinese conversation is interspersed with English words

I think especially with spoken Cantonese (especially Hong Kong and overseas) you'll find that it's littered with words borrowed from English, PC, gay, camp etc. I guess you could say it's akin to a form of slang, there are times where you'd use English words in your Cantonese regardless of whether you were speaking to a westerner or not.

I spent last week in Beijing and found that the best place for mandarin conversation practice was during taxi rides, if you didn't talk to the drivers, they'd tune into a talk radio station, so your ride then became a listening comprehension exercise etc.

A lot of the time, when shop assistants etc, start replying in English to your initial chinese approach, it's because they are trying to be helpful, they probably come across hundreds of western tourists who can do no more than "ni hao" etc, and they just know 9 times out of 10, it will be easier to converse in English.

[Lu]

I hardly ever have this problem. When I speak with Chinese, it's almost always in Chinese. Maybe I'm dominating the conversation or something, I don't know, or maybe I have less problems speaking Chinese than they have speaking English (or Dutch), or maybe I was just lucky with my language partners, I don't know.

The best solution may be finding a Chinese that doesn't speak English very well. They will be most likely to reply in Chinese, as it's easier for them. And you should make really clear what you want, tell the colleague fluent in Mandarin that you would be most grateful if she would speak Chinese with you. And then continue speaking Chinese, don't switch back to English.

[Yuchi]

Here is how I deal with it. I just refuse to speak English to people. If people come up to me on the street and start speaking to me in English, I just look at them. If they insist, then I walk away. I will only speak to people who first address me in Chinese. Anyone who yells out "hello" to me, I ignore them. If I go to a restaurant or business and they insist on English, I leave. Sometimes, I am rude, insulting and humiliating. Like the other day. I went to a coffee shop and the guy insisted on responding to me in English. I yelled at him. The whole place stopped and stared. He was very embarrassed. I spend my money where people speak to me in Chinese.

Where is this? Specific city please.

No offense but wasn't the yelling a bit crude? Or atleast the way you summarized it..

If you look the least bit "un-asian", we will assume you know english, most foreigners know english. If you prefer to talk in chinese (like Lu said), say so before the conversation begins (in chinese), we're not mind-readers.

[39degN]

I also think a lot of Chinese are ashamed of their native language - they think it's ugly, useless, and an impediment to economic and academic success. So that is probably part of the reason as well.

well, leaving the forum for a while, as i've been so busy these days, but i'm afraid i can't agree with your point.

we and i think chinese is the most beuatiful language in the world, and it can never been an impediment, your words suck really.

[geek_frappa]

we and i think chinese is the most beuatiful language in the world, and it can never been an impediment, your words suck really.

yes!

I also think a lot of Chinese are ashamed of their native language - they think it's ugly, useless, and an impediment to economic and academic success. So that is probably part of the reason as well.

Chinese Americans are not ashamed of the language. They are ashamed of the treatment they received from the U.S. government and people in that past 150 years.

Chinese is beautiful, useful, and helpful to economic and academic success. It is sad that some Chinese Americans don't speak Chinese. It closes many doors. If they have any doubts, tell them to read skylee's posts...

[geek_frappa]

in fact, skylee is probably one of the more beautiful examples of hong kong girls. many girls who come from hong kong and don't have an appetite for literature. her understanding of xiaoshuo and other literary elements is a testament to how rich and developed chinese culture is.

i need to catch up and start reading more chinese novels...

[Lu Yi Si]

Green Pea, How rude are you? How pompous too!

You insist in using Chinese speaking to other foreigners in China!

Also with Chinese whose English is possibly better than your Chinese.

I have a simple rule, the person with better language skills wins. ie if my Chinese is better than their English we use that, and visa versa. Don't get me wrong though, I have been spoken to in English by Chinese people whose English was terrible, they refused to listen to or respond to my Chinese yet they could not understand simple replys in English. This is very insulting, and an insinuation that foreigners can't speak Chinese. That aside, what you are doing sweet pea is very, very rude. Can't you see it from other peoples' point of views? They spend years studying English and have very few opportunities to speak it, you come along and get angry that they dare try to speak it to you?

Other foreigners too, is there a rule that says every foreigner in China should speak Chinese? Are we playing a game amongst other people to see which one has the better accent, bigger vocabulary, knows more characters? Do you think you are more worthy or justified to be in China because you know or think you know more Chinese than other people? I used to know an Australian who did the same thing talking to Japanese, Americans, English etc in Chinese! He was universally disliked. Everyone thought 'is this guy trying to play a game with us?' Why doesn't he speak to us in our and his own native tongue?'

Maybe you haven't been here long, being so hardcore. I think after a while you'll soften as you become sick of learning Chinese and you'll start to crave more detailed conversations.

I still have the opportunity to speak Chinese everyday to people that can't speak any English. Why don't you find an isolated village in Dong Bei, that way you can learn Chinese without insulting anyone!

[sunyata]

haha, nice one Lu Yi Si!

Unfortunately, it's very easy for foreigners to have really big ego trips while living in China. It's so easy, because no matter how much of an arsehole you are, no one will touch you, provided you have not broken any Chinese laws.

I don't think Green Pea was trying to be pompous though. He was probably just frustrated by the countless Chinese students who rush to you to practice English. It's not their fault, and of course it's understandable that they want to use this rare opportunity to practice their English, but there are simply too many of them! As a foreigner in China, you really can't be speaking in English left and right with whoever asks you, because then you will have no life.

And hanging out with foreigners can be annoying too, because some don't really care about learning Chinese, they came to China to just have fun, so it can be frustrating to spend time with them, if you are trying to learn Chinese.

In my experience though, it was usually very easy to make a deal with a Chinese student to speak both Chinese and English. I was never denied the chance to speak Chinese, if I wanted to. I think it all depends on your attitude.