Practicing Chinese with Chinese is impossible!!!

[pazu]

I don't know why but there was a guy called Mike who came to my Guestbook (http://pazu.com/stuff/gossip/gossip_new.html) to accuse me of being a racist because of my viewpoints here. I don't know why he didn't reply the post here, strange. Okay, here's what he said,

On Chinese-forum, I saw your post, as a racial minority living in Taiwan, I can say that your attitude makes life really tough for non-華人. Everyday, I have similar problem as the white guy who came in your friends cafe. Fact is, you can't know what white ppl can speak Chinese. But, that is no excuse for racism. You see white, and jump to English. You don't know where is he from. You don't know how good his English is. My dad is German, and everybody here tries English with him. It makes life difficult. It makes white people outsiders. It's not about being foriegn or not. It's about race. Here is my suggesten: You don't know if white people can speak Chinese (or English). Actually, you don't know if asian looking people can speak English either. So, just use the local language with EVERYBODY. EQUALLY. Don't care about race so much. Taiwan ppl say it's not 民族歧視, but it IS "racism". If some non-華人 can't understand ur Chinese, then try English. But never first. Don't prejudge."

And here's my reply:

This is a plain dumb suggestion of you actually and it makes life difficult for all other tourists and travellers in China too. You're thinking the situation with your own preference only, which is either too sensitive, too sentimental, or just plain impractical. I usually reply to Chinese in Chinese, but why did you send me a message in English if you're insisting your rights of communication in Hanyu? I met 50 foreigners a day, all of them speak English but no Chinese at all, one day a week there was one white guy who came and you wanted to me "respect" that guy by speaking to all other 50 guys in Chinese (which they couldn't understand). My only practical suggestion for you, go and hang a card or billboard in front of your chest and announce that you can speak Chinese, make a tattoo if you like. YOU are confusing the real practicalities and racism and let me remind you, people in Taiwan don't use the word in this way, it's you only, but you don't even know the meaning of racism. It's really a shame of you to use this word so freely. Shame on you!

Wednesday, May 26, 2004 at 18:54:55

And to Mike, you better keep your discussion here.

[gao_bo_han]

Mike,

Please do post your comments here. Pazu is right at least on that account. However, I completely sympathize with your frustrations...as the starter of this topic you will notice that I also had this problem in Taiwan.

I will say this: I don't think it is exactly racism. As Pazu pointed out, many many foreigners living in Taiwan do not know Chinese. They come only to "zhao3 ci4j1", and teach English as a way to fund their adventures. I met many Americans and other English speaking people in Taiwan who nothing beyond greetings, even though they had been living there for a long time. Sad, but true.

HOWEVER, and this is the impetus behind my original post, that often I found in Taiwan (and now in the States) that so many Chinese people refuse to use Chinese with non-Chinese, especially non-Asians. Even after the locals become aware of a white person's Chinese abilities, they still use English with him. And that, I should say, is very insulting and annoying. At that point, PAZU, it is no longer a matter of communication, it is a matter of respect, or lack thereof. How would you feel if white people refused to speak English with you, day after day, week after week, month after month? Perhaps you would start to feel a little annoyed. Just maybe, slightly perturbed. I do think that it is a matter of courtesy to at least use greetings in Chinese...nearly ALL foreigners in China will at least know those words. So only 1 in 50 foreigners in China knows greetings in Chinese? Methinks you are exaggerating a bit.

Mike, I think Green Pea is correct in his approach. Sock it right back at 'em! Just refuse to use English. Completely and utterly refuse. I can't do that here in America, because then I would be guilty of the same crime. But in Taiwan, you are justified with using Chinese in my opinion.

[Guest Yau]

I faced a strange scene when i was in taiwan: This time, some insisted to speak english to me, a chinese.

There was a big rally near the KMT headquarters in March and I talked with protesters in mandarin. Most of them felt comfortable with that, but there's an exception.

"WHY DO YOU HAVE MAINLAND ACCENT IN YOUR CHINESE?" Some said doubtfully.

"Don't you think i'm a spy from communist? " I laughed and explained that i just came from hongkong, and added: "但願我的國語也像台灣人說得軟綿綿呢." (I wish i can speak mandarin as gentle and soft as taiwanese)

They were eased a lot and begun to blame A-bien (a taiwan president) . After a few min talk, some shouted suddenly as they were able to grab my wrong pronounciation. "AH-HA! IT'S HONGKONG ACCENT!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU REALLY COME FROM HONGKONG!!"

It was so cute at first, but some begun to speak english with me later on. They simply thought that hongkong was an english colony and they should speak english with me.

I didn't like it, and switched my language back to chinese. Some found it annoyed and insisted to speak english. ASHI! That's fine, then i spoke english to them, but i felt quite uncomfortable with their accent. Then I said bye-bye to the persistent old lady, thanks for telling me so much about taiwan, but the lady was reluctant to stop.

Some more 10 mins later, I really had to go, and I begun to speak the wierd english that i even can't understand, invented so many inexistent english word, combined it with some French. Surprisingly, she NODDED their head---- she can understand it!!

[dev]

english in mainland? god i wish right now. i have had exactly 0 times that someone wants to practice english with me. i have only really met one or two chinese here who can speak it in any real capacity. they look at me and are like "why can't you speak chinese?"... pain

[sunyata]

Green Pea' date=' however I understand your frustration if you're Chinese and still treated as a non-Chinese. I helped a Taiwanese nun to translate a Chinese into English for a Rinpoche, I understood it was her urge to have the letter translated perfectly, but I was annoyed when she kept explaining every terms, e.g. 「不知仁波切以為如何。」in the letter, then the nun tried to explain to me 「仁波切」就是rinpoche; 唔……, 「以為」就是覺得, 認為啊; 「如何」就是甚麼的意思…… I told her politely that if I couldn't understand these simple things, there was nothing I could do to help her translation. She got the message, she stopped giving me advice.

[/quote']

Maybe the nun was just testing your patience?

Mike and gao bo han: don't talk to Pazu about racism, as if it has anything to do with him. How is your situation in Taiwan connected with his working in a bar in Yunnan??? There is no relation. He was completely justified in what he did and it had nothing to do with racism.

Taiwan is a different country with a different mentality, don't equate it with Mainland China and Taiwanese people with all Chinese.

In any case, foreigners who get mad because Chinese approach them with English are just self-consumed bigots. Even if English is not your native tongue, it's quite understandable why Chinese people might talk to you in English, if you are white...don't make such a big deal out of it

[weixiaoma]

Hello. I'm Mike's former English teacher. I'm simultaneously teaching English, doing computer work, and studying Chinese in Taiwan. Unlike me, Mike is NOT foreign. He was born here in Taiwan. I have to say, Pazu, what you said to Mike was terrible:

My only practical suggestion for you, go and hang a card or billboard in front of your chest and announce that you can speak Chinese, make a tattoo if you like. YOU are confusing the real practicalities and racism and let me remind you, people in Taiwan don't use the word in this way, it's you only, but you don't even know the meaning of racism. It's really a shame of you to use this word so freely. Shame on you!

Mike is a 9 year old boy. He is quite fair, and does not look very asian at all. His mom is Taiwanese, and his dad is German. He has taken a couple of trips to Germany, but he has never lived anywhere but Taiwan in his whole life. His spoken English is actually not that good. He posted on this message board in English because he got permission to do so for extra credit. We were discussing racism in class at the time.

That poor kid has to deal with people trying to talk to him in a foreign language EVERY DAY OF HIS LIFE. People call him "a foreigner" all the time. He gets treated a bit like an outcast at school, even though it's an "international school". Naturally, he is very interested in how foreigners fit into the Chinese world. I can see how he would find the idea that a waiter should just use English with whites because she "doesn't know if they can speak Chinese" very offensive. That's why he wrote his view. How you can tell him to get a tatoo, and say "shame on him" for calling racism what it is is beyond me. His mom said he was in tears after he read your replies, and she blocked this site on their computer. In an environment like this no wonder the suicide rates for mixed kids are so high in east asia.

All, I can say is that while the damage is done, it's still possible to learn something. Profiling people based on race, and using a different language with the minorities is NOT a good habit. Yes, Taiwanese (or Chinese) people of the 華人 RACIAL MAJORITY, do not consider this to be racist. But, maybe they should.

PS I personally have to agree with greenpea's approach for my own situation, though I would sure try to be a bit more diplomatic. While I AM foreign, I don't like people treating me so different than 華僑 who are also foreign. The difference is, unlike Mike, I'm an adult and won't be traumatized for it. While my Chinese will probably never be as fluent and unaccented as his, I sure wouldn't wanna trade places with him.

PPS Take what I say with a grain of salt. Obviously, I have a very biased view about this since I am more worried about my student's situation than I am about that of a bar worker I've never met.

[Guest Yau]

His mom said he was in tears after he read your replies, and she blocked this site on their computer. In an environment like this no wonder the suicide rates for mixed kids are so high in east asia.

Oh, poor boy. Misunderstanding can't be avoided when we can't see and know each other well. But about his tears, i wonder if his mom's going to build a greenhouse for him?

[Quest]

oh how much I wished everyone in the u.s. would have spoken Chinese to me!!

I thought when you signed up for this forum, you had to agree to "I am 13 years or older?" How in the world would Pazu have known he was talking to a 9th year old? As his teacher, weixiaoma, I think you need to take part of the blame.

I think speaking in English is more towards showing respect than being racist.

[xuechengfeng]

I can sympathize with what the little kid said, but he needs to review his definition of racism.

[geraldc]

In Hong Kong where English is one of the official languages, hotel staff speak English automatically to western guests, and this is taken as a sign of a quality hotel. Now if you had a hotel where the staff automatically spoke to all the western guests in Cantonese, the staff would just end up saying everything twice, first in Cantonese, then wait for the puzzlement/embarrassment to appear on the guest's face, and then they'd have to say the same phrase again in English.

When people in shops etc switch to English, they are doing it out of courtesy, they are trying to make the customers experience more pleasant/easier. It is true that not all westerners speak English, but far more westerners speak English (be it as a second language or as their mother tongue) than speak mandarin/cantonese or any other language. I don't see how assuming that a white person in Asia speaks better English than Chinese can be seen as racist.

[amperel]

profiling? did you get beat up for not speaking chinese? or were you stopped randomly by the police because you looked white? frankly it's selfish and immature to toss the word "racist" around in light of all those real "racist" discrimations.

[weixiaoma]

2 things.

1) He did not sign up for the forum. He read without signing up. He then emailed Pazu privately to say how he felt, and then Pazu posted the response for the whole forum.

2) The definition of discrimination is

Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.

If you disagree, check out http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discrimination

Using a different language to white or black people is certainly treatment based upon race, rather than merit. That is exactly what racial discrimination is. I knew many people from HK and China would be unhappy to hear this, just as this concept was NOT popular in the US 45 years ago.

The truth is racial discrimination CAN save time. I understand that the lady in the hotel probably decided that based upon the small number of Chinese speaking whites who come to her hotel, it wasn't worth it to treat everyone the same. In the same light, someone at a Mcdonalds in my hometown in the US could speak spanish to hispanic looking people and be likely to save more time than if they tried to speak English first. But the employees won't do that. The reason is that for that OCASSIONAL guy who looks totally mexican, but grew up there, it would make his life terrible to always be treated like an outsider and spoken to in a foreign language. It's always the minorities that get hurt by stereotypes.

You know who I would like to hear from? I'd like to hear from some HK people of British decent, or maybe northern Chinese people of Russian decent, and see what their view is.

Ampheral- profile as I used it means "to summarize a set of data and make generalizations from it". Thus, in this case, profiling means noting that white people are statisticly less likely to speak chinese than others. It has nothing to do with violence. Look it up at http://www.dictionary.com

Actually, I have experienced what you might call "real racism". When I was appartment hunting, there were a couple of times when I had talked with the prospective land lord, and everything seemed fine until we met. Then she said, "Sorry no foreigners". I had already told her I was from the US on the phone. But she thought I was an ABC, so it turns out that what she meant was "no whites". But in all honesty, I don't think this kind of "real racism" is as bad as the "fake racism", or whatever you call not being willing to speak to someone in the local langauge, that Mike faces. I found another appartment, no biggie. He's an outsider in his own country.

Oh, poor boy. Misunderstanding can't be avoided when we can't see and know each other well. But about his tears, i wonder if his mom's going to build a greenhouse for him?

Yao- I'm appalled by the lack of empathy from everyone on the forum. If you have a constructive comment, great! If all you want to do is mock, or make personal insults, just don't post.

[website]

I'll jump in and add my two cents to this thread.

First of all I think a 5 star hotel that uses English

with foreign visitors in a world-class city like Hong Kong

is different from a store that

uses English with foreigners in Hicksville, China. I don't think a Japanese hotel in Los Angeles that uses Japanese to communicate to Japanese is racist because it caters to a set of customers who are in a country

temporarily and expect that level of service. However, I think it IS annoying when foreigners go to a area where others like them are rare and are treated differently. Most people don't like being treated differently. I doubt that an Asian person in the USA would like to have Chinese automatically spoken to them in a store where everyone else is spoken to in English. I think that is discrimination. It is insulting when people assume that one speaks a certain language based on the way they

look. Insult is added to injury when a person clearly wants to speak the local language, but the responses are in another langauge. Even if no harm is intended, offense is still created. I also think a person who lives in a foreign country should make an effort to learn

the local language.

I also want to add that I find it hard to believe that that nine year old kid's English is much better than mine was at his age. I am not sure if he is really nine. He sounds older than that.

[geraldc]

In what ways do you guys feel the treatment you get is different? Is it stuff like automatically being given the menu typed up in English or is it more serious stuff than that?

I think one of the problems is that Chinese rarely see any Westerners who can actually speak a decent level of Chinese. Other than Dashan and a handful of other CCTV presenters, you rarely see Westerners speaking Mandarin. Do you ever see foriegn diplomats or politicians visiting China interviewed in Chinese? Occassionaly you'll see Bush use his Spanish, or Blair use his French, but I've never seen a western diplomat interviewed in Chinese. Could any of the governers of Hong Kong speak Cantonese?

If you guys don't like the treatment you're recieving, it's up to you guys to politely inform them in Chinese to stop, or go to a different shop/restaurant where you feel you're treated equally with the locals.

[Guest Yau]

When I traveled over Europe and American, most people spoke english to me, even in Paris. Can we say American is not a racist , and European is a racist? Xiaoma is showing an imaginative accusation here.

However, considering xiaoma's cultural tolerance and emotion, i better stop here. Good luck on building a peaceful world, filled with sweets and pets----ohshi, no pets, but animal companions.

[website]

This topic is interesting. I just want to add a couple of things.

1. When I traveled in Paris several years, I found people wanted to speak

French even if they spoke English.

2. Another behavior that would be insulting to foreigners is to give them a fork in restaurant when everyone

else is using kuaizi. If Denny's automatically gave an Asian person chopsticks in the USA, the media, public, lawyers, and government would have have a field day. In most of Asia, outright discrimination in housing, hiring, other areas is normal. I am

still shocked when I see a job ad here that says "Office clerk wanted- must be female aged 21-28 years old. Send

resume and photo." Political correctness just doesn't seem to have caught on here.

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~33~2340739,00.html

http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/apr252004/classmain.asp

[carlo]

I've been following some of the discussions on this forum for a bit. It would be nice to have a chat with Robert Ho Tung, the grandfather of Eric (see www.erichotung.com). I can only imagine what the life of this guy must have been like at the heyday of the east-west divide.

There is some amount of truth on both sides of the argument, obviously. I've been living in Beijing long enough to know that European-looking people here usually speak little Chinese if any. This is not something that I particularly like, it's a fact I, and everyone else, are stuck with. In fact, I've been guilty myself of addressing Chinese Tatars in English and Koreans in Chinese, from time to time. Misunderstandings do happen. A word or two of explanation (while tiresome) are usually enough (95% of the time?)

On the other hand, call it racism or xuetonglun, it is a fact that for some people (both Chinese and foreign), today's Chinese identity has a "race", or "lineage" component to it. You only have to read Sun Yat Sen or Liang Qichao to see where this comes from. 50 years ago, Europe was probably even worse - ask any mixed folks that grew up then. Today, Europe seems to have changed immensely, and in Taiwan you have 费翔 (and the most appropriate song line ever sung by a half-Chinese: 不要问我从哪里来).

I totally feel for the guy that wrote "don't care about race so much". I'm sure many Chinese would agree. As the saying goes, 人不可貌相，海水不可斗量。(you can judge a person from his appearance about as much as you can measure the ocean with a spoon).

[geraldc]

From Website's How I am learning Chinese thread

My Chinese is like reverse Chinglish. I speak Englese or Chinese

with English grammar. English-speaking Chinese have no trouble understanding me, but non-English speaking Chinese sometimes do. I haven't spent much time on tones, reading, writing, or listening, either.

This is why you are treated differently, and people insist on speaking English with you. If you don't use Chinese grammar, people will not understand what you are trying to say!

Also I saw in another thread you wanted the Chinese for Corndogs, etc. Corndogs haven't even made it to Europe, so I doubt you'll have much luck finding them in China. You have to accept that China is not America, and to be treated the same as locals, you have to learn the language properly and eat the local food.

[amperel]

i think he's more serious in looking for a wife

After my divorce, I came to China in 2002 to practice my Chinese and look for a new wife.

[weixiaoma]

Also I saw in another thread you wanted the Chinese for Corndogs, etc. Corndogs haven't even made it to Europe, so I doubt you'll have much luck finding them in China. You have to accept that China is not America, and to be treated the same as locals, you have to learn the language properly and eat the local food.

Wow, corndogs never made it to Europe? I didn't know that. In college, I lived in the international dorm. Since I was a Japanese major, I had lots of Japanese friends and we ate together a lot. They were crazy about corndogs. I hadn't eaten one in years, but they were eating like 3 a week. They called them アメリカンドーグ (amerian dog), though! I thought that was funny.

I totally agree about having to learn the language. I really don't have much respect for people who live in a foreign country and don't make any effort to learn the language. Actually, I blame a lot of my difficulties getting people to talk to me in Chinese on all those Canadian (and lots of Americans and South Africans, too) who come here to teach English, get an English speaking gf, and then after 2 years leave, still unable to ask where the bathroom is in Chinese. If I were Taiwanese and ran into enough of those people, I'd start wondering if foreigners could successfully learn Chinese too. Heck in Taiwan, they don't even see Dashan on TV!

It works both ways, though. If no one is willing to talk to a foreigner learning the language, it's pretty tough for them to learn it. Taipei is a really tough area, I think. You really HAVE to make a lot of effort to use Chinese, or the locals will happliy speak English with you 100% of the time. You know, there have been several times I've been at clubs and some Chinese girl will just come up and talk to me in English. Then I answer in Chinese, and then she just walks away... I'm dead serious.

It's not at all like latin countries where ALL the foreigners learn Spanish wether it's their goal or not. Heck, in Guatemala, even the guy who checked my passport in the airport didn't speak any English.