Difference in Mandarin Accents

[Shi Tong]

Maybe the teaching materials in Taiwan classes contain correct pronunciation but the problem is is that the teachers themselves pronounce it wrongly so the students are always gonna end up saying it that way. Like I said, I've seen videos of this being done so I know its true. At the end of the day, if it WAS taught like that in schools then the people on the street wouldn't talk like that either.

I think you're tarring everyone with the same brush.

There IS such a thing as "daiwangoyu", which is INCORRECTLY pronounced Mandarin. This is a phenomenon where some people whose first language is Taiwanese speak with an attrocious accent. This is actually in some best cases, laughed at, and in worst, sneered at.

People dont think it's GOOD to speak incorrectly, they actually think it's laughable.

That said, the converse is true too, in that people think that Taiwanese should be able to speak Taiwanese fluently as well.

Consider all those countries in the world where they live with as many as 3 languages, and then learn English (like Switzerland) and they speak 4 languages fluently without any problems at all.

I disagree. There's a world of difference between accent and pronouncing words quite wrongly. Accent is normally just an overall sound difference or slight changes to many words or slightly more major changes to few words. This is a very big change to many, many words.

Yeah, but I'm not talking about native speakers in Taiwan, epsecially the younger generation who would never say si instead of shi, and would certainly never be TAUGHT this at school.

I am talking more about American's or English, or other forign people with an accent who have trouble with that sound. Some of those will never really be able to get their tongue around it, but it causes VERY LITTLE misunderstanding since everything is in context.

Put it this way- there are so many words in Chinese which are pronounced the same, cant I argue that it's confusing because of that fact? The fact of the matter is that everything is taken in context.

And this is the most important point, its not just changing words, its changing words into OTHER words! So its like I'm saying 'cat' but it comes out as 'dog'. Much more of a problem than for example saying 'cat' and the 't' on the end is very soft.

Hold on though, this is to suggest that Taiwanese Mandarin is WORSE than Chinese Mandarin, which I think is an awful thing to suggest.

I'm English.

Are you suggesting that I should go to America and tell them that their English is WORSE than mine because it's not "original brand"?

I dont think so!!

PS: If you think Taiwanese taught Mandarin is BAD, please go to http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/19910-post-a-sample-of-your-pronunciation-here&page=4 and insult my WAV file. I was taught in Taiwan, and mostly I leanred myself on the hoof from my wife.

Thanks.

[XiaoXi]

So does that make Taiwanese much cleverer than Beijingrs, because they can deal with these misunderstanding which would completely stump northern Chinese?

They have their own language Taiwanese to fall back on. I don't think they need to be too great at mandarin since they have that. Beijingers need to be better since that's the only language they have.

[XiaoXi]

Hold on though, this is to suggest that Taiwanese Mandarin is WORSE than Chinese Mandarin, which I think is an awful thing to suggest.

I'm English.

Are you suggesting that I should go to America and tell them that their English is WORSE than mine because it's not "original brand"?

I dont think so!!

That's an awful example. When did I say Taiwanese is worse just because its not the original brand? Its bad because its bad. A better example you could have said people who can't pronounce their R's. Although that is not too bad since its only one initial compared with several in Taiwan mandarin and its not a whole nation, its just some people that have that problem.

PS: If you think Taiwanese taught Mandarin is BAD, please go to http://www.chinese-forums.com/showth...t=27619&page=4 and insult my WAV file. I was taught in Taiwan, and mostly I leanred myself on the hoof from my wife.

Well you don't seem to have problems with initials although your 3rd tones are very sharp falling 4th tones e.g 很好 and 冷 That's not really the subject here though.

[skylee]

Well you don't seem to have problems with initials although your 3rd tones are very sharp falling 4th tones e.g 很好 and 冷

They are 4th tones????? Really?????

[realmayo]

Skylee, what do they sound like to you? To me, they sound like 3rd tones emphasised more strongly than I'd expect in textbook putonghua -- their lowness emphasised, not their dipping or rising.

[skylee]

I left my comments in post #76 of that thread.

the pronunciation is not full (ie the sound drops but does not seem to go up again), but they definitely do not sound like 4th tone.

[realmayo]

ah I see, thanks.

XiaoXi

I disagree. There's a world of difference between accent and pronouncing words quite wrongly.

Also, wasn't this whole topic done nearly to death recently elsewhere? People who've not lived south of the Yangtse often can't understand how people mange without differentiating between s/sh, z/zh, c/ch.

So its like I'm saying 'cat' but it comes out as 'dog'. Much more of a problem than for example saying 'cat' and the 't' on the end is very soft.

This makes no sense. The sounds of "cat" and "dog" are utterly different. The sounds between si and shi, se and she, etc, have only one difference ... and a uniformly applied one at that.

And crucially, putonghua has an abundance of homophones but seems to be a regular language; so why should adding a few more to the mix suddenly cause problems?

its changing words into OTHER words

Isn't this looking at things completely the wrong way around? In general terms, words, spoken, refer to things. The //sounds// are being given a heavier workload, but as long as that workload is manageable, there should be no problem.

If I make the sound "wood", do you know what I mean? How do you know I don't mean "would"? Or even, how do you know if I'm referring to "forest" or "material taken from trees"?

[Shi Tong]

They have their own language Taiwanese to fall back on. I don't think they need to be too great at mandarin since they have that. Beijingers need to be better since that's the only language they have.

Taiwan's first language is MANDARIN.

Taiwanese is almost exactly the same as Fujian hua, so it's not even their own language either.

That's an awful example. When did I say Taiwanese is worse just because its not the original brand? Its bad because its bad. A better example you could have said people who can't pronounce their R's. Although that is not too bad since its only one initial compared with several in Taiwan mandarin and its not a whole nation, its just some people that have that problem.

It's not because I dont think that American's pronounce their t's properly, since they blunt them off. They also use strange words which we dont use in the UK, namely sidewalk for pavement.

Assuming that EVERYONE speaks with incorrect or flimsy soundings of zh/ch/sh/ j/q/x is simply incorrect.

Well you don't seem to have problems with initials although your 3rd tones are very sharp falling 4th tones e.g 很好 and 冷 That's not really the subject here though.

Consider this: I am a lauwai, taught Mandarin in Taipei, I started my journey when I was 23. I did 3 months at wenhua daxue, and was actually taught to speak Mandarin by a native Taiwanese person.

Not only that, but was told that Taiwanese teach Mandarin to a Beijing standard, since this is the "CORRECTest" form of Mandarin.

So, I would assume from that statement that the cast majority of Taiwanese people are taught this way.

Oh, and if you think that's a 4th tone, then I'm a 4 headed hydra.

PS: Taiwanese guoyu is TAUGHT to have a dip/ rise 3rd tone, but everyone on the street uses 3rd as a flat low tone, which is why I speak it that way. It's also why I dont use erhua (something which Chinese use more) even though I was taught to use it.

So this is a Taiwanese peculiarity, but it's certainly not a detriment to the language, since everyone uses this slightly different 3rd tone.

[g1izmo]

We non-native Chinese speakers love to make a mountain out of a mole hill when it comes to tones and Mandarin accents.

Aslong as you are understood and can understand then the purpose of language has been fulfilled.

More standard does not mean 'more better'. The best accents are the most appropriate, most appropriate to the time and place used.

r

[XiaoXi]

They are 4th tones????? Really?????

You're right, they're not 4th tones. My level is Chinese is only elementary but I had my wife who is native Chinese listen and she said they are not 4th tone but do have heavy emphasis on the falling part. She said it was obviously a Taiwan accent and also that your pronunciation of 冷 was strange but that's normal for Taiwan.

They have their own language Taiwanese to fall back on. I don't think they need to be too great at mandarin since they have that. Beijingers need to be better since that's the only language they have.

Taiwan's first language is MANDARIN.

Taiwanese is almost exactly the same as Fujian hua, so it's not even their own language either.

Ok those comments are kind of irrelevant. What I said still stands.

[Shi Tong]

Hello Xiaoxi,

Let me ask you.

Have you ever been to Taiwan? Do you know any Taiwanese people? Have you ever met a Taiwanese Mandarin teacher?

If the answer to the above is no, especially with the third one, I would say that you dont really have any idea what you're talking about.

There isn't a single Mandarin teacher in Taiwan who would tell you that saying j/q/x is the same as saying zh/ch/sh, or that you should "not worry about it", since "everyone speaks this way", if that was so, then why bother with showing you the different zhuyin for those sounds? Why bother spending a good few hours with their faces right up close to yours to show you the mouth shape of these sounds?

And this is from a person who learned Mandarin as an ADULT, and only went to college there for 3 months.

Are you suggesting then, that I was lucky to have a Mandarin teacher from Taiwan who taught me properly, because there's only 1 on the island, and managed to get me to realise the difference between j/q/x and zh/ch/sh, then my amazing wife (which she is, but she's not a Mandarin teacher), managed to keep me on that course for 9 years?!

I'm going to make this into my little Mandarin essay project, since I'm not taking any classes at the moment.. I may even record it to prove that Taiwanese pronounce their j/q/x and zh/ch/sh correctly!! ho ho ho

[Shi Tong]

Rough draft, please correct!!

你好, xiaoxi.

我先问你几个问题.

你有去过台湾吗?

你有没有认识台湾人?

你有没有认识台湾的中文老师?

如果都没有的话, 那我认为你对这件(? Correct)事情完全不懂.

我从来没有遇到过一个台湾中文老师说他觉得发不对的 ji/qi/xi/zh/ch/sh音好. 他们对这件事情很重要(因为中文是他们的母语). 不然为什么花那么多时间在我面前讲得那么清楚, 在跟我们班发音?

而且想想, 我是个长大才开始学中文的 (笨optional) 老外.

More to come, if needed or wanted.

Also, feel free to move this to a more appropriate thread if required too.

Thanks!!

[XiaoXi]

Hello Xiaoxi,

Let me ask you.

Have you ever been to Taiwan? Do you know any Taiwanese people? Have you ever met a Taiwanese Mandarin teacher?

If the answer to the above is no, especially with the third one, I would say that you dont really have any idea what you're talking about.

There isn't a single Mandarin teacher in Taiwan who would tell you that saying j/q/x is the same as saying zh/ch/sh, or that you should "not worry about it", since "everyone speaks this way", if that was so, then why bother with showing you the different zhuyin for those sounds? Why bother spending a good few hours with their faces right up close to yours to show you the mouth shape of these sounds?

The biggest problem with Taiwanese teachers is regardless of how they try to teach those sounds they don't speak that way in day to day speech during the lessons so regardless of any long analysis of the sounds the students will simply copy their teacher's pronunciation. Here's an example I found on youtube of a foreign student and both his teachers who have fun not being able to pronounce 'sh'.

[renzhe]

Does your whole expertise on Chinese language teaching in Taiwan boil down to youtube clips?

[atitarev]

XiaoXi has a point there but perhaps it doesn't sound too nice and a bit unfriendly. There were a lot of discussions here about it. In the standard Taiwanese Mandarin the sounds do differ (much lighter than in mainland) but as XiaoXi says, not all teachers worry about the standard pronunciation, even if they know the prescribed accent.

I have an older teacher who speaks with a heavy Southern accent, he is a mainlander but from Suzhou or Hangzhou, sorry I forgot. He only pronounces words properly when he is reading out the new words, at other times he speaks as he is used to speak, there is no "h" in shi, chi or zhi. It's not even Taiwanese light pronunciation of zhi, chi, shi but pure zi, ci, si, which affects my understanding. Ironically, more than a half of students come from Chinese dialects, some can read the written texts well, wanting to learn the standard Mandarin pronunciation. Well, they are not learning the standard accent.

Yes, I met a few teachers who know how to say correctly but even in class, they are not trying hard to always pronounce correctly. They are usually from Southern provinces of China but I suspect that in Taiwan it could be a similar situation. Some younger people often speak with a standard accent, even from the South. I met some young Taiwanese people in Sydney and Melbourne who pronounced zh, ch and sh quite clearly and 2 Taiwanese women who spoke in a perfectly accented Mandarin (Taiwanese variety). There are different cases, so you can't say who is right. Depends on the person, really.

I am trying to get used to this type of (Southern) accent, well, about half of China speaks this way, plus Taiwan. (This is when they are not trying hard). I don't think Chinese people speaking with a Southern accent should feel their Mandarin is bad, it's us foreigners who should learn to adjust.

[XiaoXi]

Does your whole expertise on Chinese language teaching in Taiwan boil down to youtube clips?

You mean videos of real people doing real things? Obviously you and other people who have learned in Taiwan would take offense to this but at the start of this thread I didn't anticipate any that have actually studied in Taiwan posting in this thread. Clearly there's not much to argue against what I'm saying because for the most part its certainly true, although I was never saying there weren't exceptions to this. For example, I know a guy from the south who speaks pretty good northern sounding mandarin. He lives here in Tianjin and commutes to Beijing.

Taiwanese, young or old, for the most part have these pronunciation problems so naturally these problems will also turn up in many classrooms where foreigners are taught. Its easy to spot a Taiwanese actor, actress, singer etc on tv by their pronunciation problems.

I think Atitarev has some good points about all this.

One of my teachers has a bit of a Tianjin accent which comes out while teaching. Its nowhere near as severe as the Taiwan "accent" though. Its what I would define as a 'real' accent. For example she pronounces 'ying' with more of a 'yeung' type sound. Not 100% standard mandarin but not a huge problem since 'yeung' is not another Chinese word so can't really be confused with anything else.

[anonymoose]

What's wrong with learning the Taiwan accent when living in Taiwan? Why shouldn't Taiwanese people speak with their own accent on their own territory? If it's a problem, then why go to Taiwan to study?

It's like someone going to the US to study English, and then complaining when the teacher doesn't speak with an English accent.

[XiaoXi]

What's wrong with learning the Taiwan accent when living in Taiwan? Why shouldn't Taiwanese people speak with their own accent on their own territory? If it's a problem, then why go to Taiwan to study?

Because Youtube and Facebook aren't blocked there, the weather is good and the girls are hot perhaps?

It's like someone going to the US to study English, and then complaining when the teacher doesn't speak with an English accent.

No it isn't. This isn't about accent, its about inability to pronounce words correctly. I would say its like going to Germany to study English. Germans for the most part have problems with the 'th' sound, 'w' etc when speaking English. I feel this example is very comparable to studying Chinese in Taiwan. I wish I'd come up with this analogy earlier, its perfect.

[Shi Tong]

No it isn't. This isn't about accent, its about inability to pronounce words correctly.

1) If I go to Beijing, or I meet someone from Northern China and they are pronouncing their words differently from what I'm used to, which is a Taiwanese accent, then I consider this MY fault, since their accent is natural to them.

2) I'm English, from the South, if I hear someone from Glasgow speaking English with an accent that I dont understand, then that's MY fault, since it's their natural accent.

3) Your assumption that someone is pronoucing words "incorrectly" because there is less stress on a sound is not a valid argument because, though Taiwanese accent does stress these sounds less than they would in China, there is still a clear difference, even in the wonderful clip you produced.

Please also remember that the clip you produced only had a foreign student speaking for probably 80% of the time. His accent was definately Taiwanese and sometimes he struggled with j/q/x zh/ch/sh sounds, but if you note his teachers, they both made a clear pronunciation difference between the sounds.

4) If you or your girlfriend have listened to the clip I produced, and your girlfriend told you that "I definately have a Taiwanese accent, but I dont have trouble with the sounds", then clearly I've been taught right. Please address the question I put to you about this;

Are you suggesting then, that I was lucky to have a Mandarin teacher from Taiwan who taught me properly, because there's only 1 on the island, and managed to get me to realise the difference between j/q/x and zh/ch/sh, then my amazing wife (which she is, but she's not a Mandarin teacher), managed to keep me on that course for 9 years?!

5) Do you even know what an accent is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accent_%28linguistics%29

Some notable examples:

As human beings spread out into isolated communities, stresses and peculiarities develop. Over time these can develop into identifiable accents.

It has been theorized that the accents of certain groups in the USA today resemble the English spoken by the settlers in the 17th and 18th centuries more than it does the English spoken by most Britons today.

In many cases, the accents of non-English settlers from Great Britain and Ireland affected the accents of the different colonies quite differently. Irish, Scottish and Welsh immigrants had accents which greatly affected the vowel pronunciation of certain areas of Australia and Canada.

If these vowel pronunciations are so different, what makes the argument we're having different?

I would say its like going to Germany to study English.

Which part of Germany has English as their first language?

Actually, if you said to me "learning Mandarin in Singapore is a bad idea because it's their second language", I would probably agree with you to a certain extent.

I feel this example is very comparable to studying Chinese in Taiwan. I wish I'd come up with this analogy earlier, its perfect.

Perfect? Ha!!!:lol::lol:

Brilliant.. you think that Taiwanese whose first language is Mandarin, granted spoken with an ACCENT, speak worse Mandarin than those on Mainland China? What about those Beijingers who speak -your idea of- "perfect" mandarin who use loads of erhua where it's not needed/ not necessary/ incorrect? Do you mean that all Beijingers/ Northern Chinese speak perfect Chinese, because it's their "only language", therefore they "must speak it perfectly"?

Ok, so if I use your mind set, I will say that all American's cant speak English properly because I get confused with their vowel sounds, because American's have an accent, even though English is their first language.

If you really want to trade YouTube as a real argument, note this:

Though this is unclear, this is a Taiwanese woman with a very obvious Taiwanese accent. However, she's speaking Standard Mandarin with a clear j/q/x zh/ch/sh sound. If you're not used to the accent, then, that's your problem.

[realmayo]

Yes, congratulations, it's a perfect analogy ... or would be if English was the standard language in Germany.