Difference in Mandarin Accents

[renzhe]

No, it's more like learning English in Scotland.

You might have problems understanding the man on the street, but it's not their problem. And after a while, you get used to it.

[Shi Tong]

Yes, congratulations, it's a perfect analogy ... or would be if English was the standard language in Germany.

:lol:

Yeah, I plan to study French in Germany too.. very similar thing, because French is Germany's first language.

We could have a sensible discussion about weather or not it's a good idea to study, say, German in Swizerland, because they have (3 or 4) languages there which they speak all the time.

I wonder if this affects the accent or produces any (real) incorrectness? Or is this too sensible?

EDIT: Renzhe- you're right, though I would say I have very little trouble understanding most Chinese people and I dont think their accent is very "heavy" in comparrison with my Taiwanese one. If I'd learned in Penghu or Gaoxiong, I would say there is a slightly higher chance of pronunciation problems, but in Taipei the j/q/x/zh/ch/sh devide is made very clear from day 1.

[anonymoose]

I would say its like going to Germany to study English. Germans for the most part have problems with the 'th' sound, 'w' etc when speaking English. I feel this example is very comparable to studying Chinese in Taiwan. I wish I'd come up with this analogy earlier, its perfect.

No, it's a ridiculous analogy.

[calibre2001]

If you really want to trade YouTube as a real argument, note this:

Though this is unclear, this is a Taiwanese woman with a very obvious Taiwanese accent. However, she's speaking Standard Mandarin with a clear j/q/x zh/ch/sh sound. If you're not used to the accent, then, that's your problem.

Ummm.....I think it's Malaysian. She said 來自馬來西亞

[Shi Tong]

Ummm.....I think it's Malaysian. She said 來自馬來西亞

Oooh.. how odd, I'm sure she's speaking Mandarin and I found her on a search for Taiwanese Mandarin. (I clearly didn't look too closely and the quality is poor, sorry about that)

Let me find someone else.

How about this.. it's really embarrasing:

At least she's Taiwanese and she's speaking with a very clear difference between zh/sh/ch/j/q/x.

If we really want to talk analogies, I would say that learning Mandarin in Taipei is like learning English in New York, and learning Mandarin in Beijing is like learning English in London.

Of course, if you learn Mandarin in Penghu or some other far flung region where their Mandarin is more like their second language, then I'd say learning Mandarin in Penghu is like learning English in Scotland.

However, comparrisons like this are pointless, the argument is that Taiwanese still think it very important to know the difference between zh/sh/ch/j/q/x and they would not teach someone that they're the same.

[realmayo]

XiaoXi, if you were talking about, say, English or whatever, I would say without a doubt you are clueless. Because having an accent in English, be it one from Liverpool or Birmingham or Sunderland or Bristol; or New York or LA or Seattle does not mean you speak "wrong".

However, you're talking about Putonghua. Perhaps you have a point. In that: Putonghua is an artificial language, learned by everyone who spoke it as a second language: so everyone who learned it had to learn its rules, and how it differed from their mother tongue.

So in that narrow sense, as an artificial language, I can see how you might say that ANY accent, be it a Beijing one, or a Tianjin one, or a Taiwan one, or HK one, is WRONG.

But: if you are looking at Putonghua as a real life language used by hundreds of millions of people to communicate in China, then I think your suggestion that an accent is "wrong" is at best misguided. The point of a living language is to enable clear and easy communication. Where an accent seriously hinders that, then we have a problem. But where it doesn't, we don't. Or at least, the people who speak it every day seem not to. You and your textbook perhaps do.

I also wonder whether demographics in China will help change the right/wrong approach to Putonghua. I guess that with more and more children being born in China to parents who speak two very different dialects and therefore use Putonghua every day to talk with each other, more and more children are being taught Putonghua as their first language. But it doubt it will be textbook Putonghua.

[Shi Tong]

Interesting and valid point realmayo.

Also, I think you'll find that there are several different Mandarin standards, Taiwanese Mandarin is called (as far as I remember) 国语, which has a different standard to 普通话 in China which comes out of Beijing.

The differences include accent and some phrasiology, it also includes some, or is missing some erhua. You could say that makes it different, but not in any way worse or wrong.

That's like saying because I say "London" with an "English" accent, and Americans say "London" with an "American" accent, that one is right, the other is wrong. Fact is, they're different.

I would also say you have a point if the Taiwanese version of Mandarin is so different that people from Beijing cant understand it, but that would make it a different dialect.

[XiaoXi]

2) I'm English, from the South, if I hear someone from Glasgow speaking English with an accent that I dont understand, then that's MY fault, since it's their natural accent.

If you talk to a Geordie then you probably won't understand him. If England start employing Geordies with heavy accents teaching English to foreigners all over the place then we'll have a similar problem to Taiwanese teaching Chinese.

Please also remember that the clip you produced only had a foreign student speaking for probably 80% of the time. His accent was definately Taiwanese and sometimes he struggled with j/q/x zh/ch/sh sounds, but if you note his teachers, they both made a clear pronunciation difference between the sounds.

What are you talking about? Of course they didn't. I posted that video particularly for you to listen to the teachers, not the student! They have a very typical Taiwanese inability to say the 'sh' sound.

Which part of Germany has English as their first language?

OMG, talk about missing my point completely.

Brilliant.. you think that Taiwanese whose first language is Mandarin, granted spoken with an ACCENT, speak worse Mandarin than those on Mainland China? What about those Beijingers who speak -your idea of- "perfect" mandarin who use loads of erhua where it's not needed/ not necessary/ incorrect? Do you mean that all Beijingers/ Northern Chinese speak perfect Chinese, because it's their "only language", therefore they "must speak it perfectly"?

Shi and Si are not the same word. Anyone who says them exactly the same is speaking worse mandarin than someone who clearly distinguishes them. Simple as that. In fact its wrong to say 'worse' mandarin, its most certainly incorrect mandarin. If I were to pronounce the 'sh' sound like the Taiwanese teachers in the video I posted then my teachers will surely correct me. Hence it is wrong. I have an accent in fact, because I'm a foreigner speaking Chinese I'm bound to. But the most important thing is I am still pronouncing the words correctly - at least to the best of my ability.

Though this is unclear, this is a Taiwanese woman with a very obvious Taiwanese accent. However, she's speaking Standard Mandarin with a clear j/q/x zh/ch/sh sound. If you're not used to the accent, then, that's your problem.

I didn't say no-one in Taiwan speaks incorrectly, I said mostly they don't.

[XiaoXi]

If we really want to talk analogies, I would say that learning Mandarin in Taipei is like learning English in New York, and learning Mandarin in Beijing is like learning English in London.

You need to qualify your statements. What words do people in New York say that sound like completely different words to what they supposed to be in standard (Queen's?) English?. As far as I can see they say things a little different but each word still sounds like the word its supposed to be and not another. I find it amazing that none of you can grasp this most simple point.

[Shi Tong]

If you talk to a Geordie then you probably won't understand him. If England start employing Geordies with heavy accents teaching English to foreigners all over the place then we'll have a similar problem to Taiwanese teaching Chinese.

These analogies do not work at all, they're very pointless. The point is weather or not Taiwanese people pronounce their j/q/x/zh/ch/sh sounds "properly".

Also, tell me what's wrong with speaking with a Geordie accent if you're going to live in Geordie land? If in Taiwan, they all speak with a Taiwanese accent, and you intend to live in/ do business with people from/ marry with people from Taiwan, then that's completely appropriate, since all Taiwanese people have a similar accent.

If I was going to marry someone from Beijing, then I would learn a Beijing accent wouldn't I?

What are you talking about? Of course they didn't. I posted that video particularly for you to listen to the teachers, not the student! They have a very typical Taiwanese inability to say the 'sh' sound.

Then there's something wrong with your hearing because I can hear several examples of them saying sh and a xi in there correctly, or at least, with a Taiwanese accent.

A perfect example is at 1.04 in the video she says "shi4" with a "sh" sound, at 1.08 she says "shi4" again, with a "sh" sound, at 1.10 she says "shi2wu3" with a "sh" sound.

At 1:14, the other teacher says "shuo" with a perfect "sh" sound, at 1:16 she says "fong zhong" with a perfect "zh" sound, at 1:17 she says "shen1ke4" with a perfect "sh" sound, at 1:20 she says "liang3jian4shi4" with a perfect "ji" sound and a perfect "sh" sound.

She then repeats "shen1ke4", with a perfect sh sound.

Right at the start, the first teacher also says "ni3 xi3huan1 shen2me yun4dong4", with a perfect xi3 for xi3huan1.

OMG, talk about missing my point completely.

No, it's not, you're suggesting that Taiwanese guoyu, or Mandarin is as badly taught/ spoken as if it's a foreign language in the country. Actually, it's their first language, and therefore is treated with as much accuracy as is it would be in England where English is the first language. If anything, there are loads of people who cant speak fujianhua properly because of the fact that Mandarin is the first language in Taiwan, so..

You could argue that learning fu-jianhua in Taipei was a bad idea because the Taipei people are getting less proficient at their second language.

That I would debate with you about, but your example is completely rediculous.

Shi and Si are not the same word.

You didn't answer my question.

Shi and Si are of course, not the same word. They're not taught that way in Taiwan, and not many people speak that way there.

Anyone who says them exactly the same is speaking worse mandarin than someone who clearly distinguishes them. Simple as that.

How many Taiwanese do you know?

Oh, and how many Taiwanese do you know whose first language is Manadarin who cant distinguish them?

I feel that it's 0, but you're not willing to admit that you really know nothing about this.

In fact its wrong to say 'worse' mandarin, its most certainly incorrect mandarin.

You're right, which is why it's not spoken or taught in Taiwan.

If I were to pronounce the 'sh' sound like the Taiwanese teachers in the video I posted then my teachers will surely correct me. Hence it is wrong.

As I said, you're not hearing it right, and also, your teachers are not Taiwanese, so they would want you to put extra emphasis on the sh sound, like they do in mainland China.

That doesn't mean to say that there is no difference in Taiwan, because there clearly is, you're just not hearing it.

But the most important thing is I am still pronouncing the words correctly - at least to the best of my ability.

What does this have to do with the argument? I pronounce my sounds correctly, just with a different accent.

I can even record more for you if you're so convinced that Taiwanese people cant teach or say si and shi.

I didn't say no-one in Taiwan speaks incorrectly, I said mostly they don't.

oooooooooooooooh.. that's alright then.. so MOSTLY Taiwanese people cant speak their own language, because I have a TEACHING video (a bad one at that), which proves that most Taiwanes DO pronounce these correctly.

Wow.. amazing.

BTW- attachment is of a tongue twister whose requirement is to pronounce the sounds correctly (si4shi2si4zhi1shi2shi1zi)- something which I was challenged to so correctly in Taiwan, because they want you to properly pronounce your words.

ooooh.. forgot to reply to this gem:

You need to qualify your statements. What words do people in New York say that sound like completely different words to what they supposed to be in standard (Queen's?) English?. As far as I can see they say things a little different but each word still sounds like the word its supposed to be and not another. I find it amazing that none of you can grasp this most simple point.

I need to qualify MY statements? As if you've not given us a load of arbitury nonesense so far? Then I ask you to qualify your own, since you have no evidence at all.

New Yorkers curl their tongues at the end of their words "hair", which sounds like the erhua in China. They say sidewalk instead of pavement. A lot of the vowel sounds in US English are different from the English spoken in England- see new castle, which is pronounced like "noo cassle" in American English- with a short a in castle and a different sound to the new we make in the UK.

I must mention that my wife, from Taiwan, who had learned American English all her life until she went to England, found it pretty hard to understand an English accent when she came here first.

Would this suggest to you that British and US English are very different? To the point where someone who has a degree in English finds it hard to understand?

NOONE THINKS THAT saying j/q/x is acceptable in Taiwan, and NOONE is saying it IS, but Taiwanese DO have an accent, which is an ACCENT not incorrect sounding.

If it's incorrect sounding, then they speaking bad Mandarin, but as I said before, because Mandarin is their first language, MOST people are CORRECTED if they ARE speaking incorrectly.

lions.wma

[realmayo]

This is futile. He says, as if it is going to explain everything:

Shi and Si are not the same word

But first: these are not words, only pinyin! Second, in Putonghua 师湿诗诗失施狮 are all pronounced shī (same tone even!) and yet are not considered "the same word". The language has plenty of homonyms.

Without taking these fairly simple facts on board there's no point engaging further. (sh)

[renzhe]

Shi and Si are not the same word

Correct.

Each one of them is about one hundred different words.

[jbradfor]

@XiaoXi, in post 96

Taiwanese, young or old, for the most part have these pronunciation problems so naturally these problems will also turn up in many classrooms where foreigners are taught. Its easy to spot a Taiwanese actor, actress, singer etc on tv by their pronunciation problems.

Change Taiwan to American, and you get

Americans, young or old, for the most part have these pronunciation problems so naturally these problems will also turn up in many classrooms where foreigners are taught. Its easy to spot a American [compared to British] actor, actress, singer etc on tv by their pronunciation problems.

Which is perfectly true. It's called an accent.

XiaoXi, you are making no sense. You are confusing an accent with ... with ... with ... I don't know with what, actually, inability so speak a language perhaps.

If you want to argue that Taiwan is a bad place to learn Mandarin because the learner is more likely to end up with an accent further from putonghua than someone that learns in, say Beijing, then go ahead and make that argument. [And I would agree with you to a point, I know I have a bit of a Taiwanese accent in my Mandarin, but IMHO that doesn't make Taiwan a bad place, just one factor one needs to take into account.]

I read though your posts a couple of times to try to find a coherent argument in there. From what I can tell, your point boils down to this

You need to qualify your statements. What words do people in New York say that sound like completely different words to what they supposed to be in standard (Queen's?) English?. As far as I can see they say things a little different but each word still sounds like the word its supposed to be and not another. I find it amazing that none of you can grasp this most simple point.

In other words, you argue that a Taiwanese accent is wrong, and not just an accent, because they frequently merge two sounds that in standard putonghua is one sound.

Am I close?

If so, then I think you have a unique definition of what an accent is. The reason no one here grasps this is because we don't agree with you. Yes, you are correct that in most English accents this is not the cases, even with different accents different words are pronounced differently, but still uniquely. But I bet there are some cases where that does occur. For example, read this article:

In most North American accents, for example, although there are ten or eleven stressed monophthongs, only five or six vowel contrasts are possible before a following /r/ in the same syllable (peer, pear, purr, pore, par, poor). Often, more contrasts exist when the /r/ is not in the same syllable; in some American dialects and in most native English dialects outside North America, for example, mirror and nearer do not rhyme, and some or all of marry, merry and Mary are pronounced distinctly. (In North America, these distinctions are most likely to occur in New York City, Philadelphia, Eastern New England (including Boston), and in conservative Southern accents.) In nearly all dialects, however, the number of contrasts in this position is reduced, and the tendency is towards further reduction. The difference in how these reductions have been manifested represents one of the greatest sources of cross-dialect variation.

For example, I do pronounce marry, merry and Mary the same. [i grew up in California, now live in the midwest.] Since some other English accents pronounce them distinctly, is my English therefore wrong because I merge sounds?

[Shi Tong]

You're all right, it's pointless to even try to argue about this.. but for my own satisfaction I'll just prove this wrong all over again. This time in a more simple fashion.

1) The accusation is that Taiwanese Mandarin is taught without using the zh/ch/sh/ j/q/x sounds correctly.

OK, first, say that's true. This is still an accent.

A dialect is something which is so different, someone cant understand someone else's language (like Cantonese or fujianhua).

2) Of the people in Taiwan who DO speak without using zh/ch/sh/ j/q/x, in reality there are very, very few. Older people tend to do this more than younger ones because they were brought up with taiyu in their homes, so Mandarin is a second language to them. My mother in law is slightly prone to it, but it causes hardly any misunderstanding.

I remember her asking if I wanted to climb mountains and said "pa san" instead of "shan", I got confused, but this is back in the day when I had only done 2 months of learning and it was soon cleared up.

Other than that, I'd say that only a very small minority of people speak with such an effected language that you cant understand it, and they do have a clear differentiation between zh/ch/sh/ and j/q/x.

Listen to my sample if you want a Taiwanese accented example of why I'm right.

3) If, and I think this is closer to the reality, you DONT LIKE Taiwanese accent, that's fine, but dont try to make it about who's right or wrong. If everyone speaks clearly and can communicate, using zh/ch/sh/ and j/q/x but with a different accent, then it cant be wrong.

I personally dont really like mainland accent/ BJ accent, but that's something I do not let cloud my judgments, and the only reason for this is because I learned a Taiwanese one first and because my English accent is closer to a Taiwanese one, making it easier for me to learn.

4) Even if said Taiwanese person/ people (of whom there are very few) speak without a clear zh/ch/sh/ j/q/x sound, then why does it matter so much? There are plenty of Beijingers who are speaking with unnecessary non- putonghua- erhua in their language, making it "unclearer" for those who speak putonghua "perfectly", of which there are probably a total of no people.

The perpose of language is to communicate, and if you can do that with incorrect sounds, then it's still suceeded in it's mission. And this is even for those who are considered to be wrong (which, as I said, is very few).

And dont tell me again that it's "all of them" or "nearly all of them", when proven wrong, because if you'd admit it, you really dont know because you dont know Taiwanese people, you've not been to Taiwan and you dont know any Taiwanese zhongwen teachers anyway. But getting you to accurately answer my questions would also be too hard, because you know I'm right.

jbradfor, Thanks for coming up with a perfect example (merry, marry and mary), I would never even consider saying you're wrong. Not only that, but I'm sure we'd be able to communicate clearly.. which is kind of the point, isn't it?

Sigh.

[calibre2001]

On zh/ch/sh/ j/q/x sounds I think even if the 'h' goes missing in spoken form, the tone is the same. So that forms the basis of understanding eventhough the 'h' has disappeared. In fact thas why tones are so important.

[Shi Tong]

Calibre, indeed!

Thing that I think kind of sums up this argument is this:

There is plenty of proof provided by myself and others on this forum to suggest that Taiwanese teach the difference between zh/ch/sh/ j/q/x sounds.

Therefore there is no basis for the argument that they dont.

[Shi Tong]

Back on track, and not just a rant:

I've noticed something which I thought I would ask other forum members of their opinion on.

If you watch a Taiwanese Mandarin version of.. say, something like a kids cartoon (something like dubbed Totoro or something), has anyone noticed that:

a) The children, and sometimes the less serious characters speak using less stress on some sounds, saying things like "wo3zi1dao4" instead of "wo3zhi1dao4"?

B) The adults, and the more serious characters speak using a more traditional method, with a lot of emphasis on some sounds like the classic "j/q/x/zh/ch/sh" sounds.

An example I can think of off the top of my head from my example is the dad in Totoro who seems to have a mainland Chinese accent, and the grandma who comes to look after them (I remember her specifically saying "hao3 huo2po1 de hai2zi" (what lively children) with a very obvious Chinese style accent), and the children who use a lot of Taiwanese expressionism sounds like "wa4!" and "hao3ke3 eye4ooooo".

Does this suggest that speaking with a Taiwanese/ less "official" accent should be considered less mature, or more innocent, or cuter? Or that Chinese mainland accents are more mature, more official, more standard, stronger?

What do people think?

[Hofmann]

I think it's more of merging Pinyin /zh/ /ch/ /sh/ and /z/ /c/ /s/.

Both mainland and Taiwan standards differentiate them. People get on people's cases if they don't differentiate them. It is rare that one would get on the standard's case if it doesn't differentiate some things. For example, anyone ever complained that Standard Mandarin doesn't differentiate [ʈ], [tʂ], and [tɕ]? I don't think so; it is standard; it is prestigious.

The language has plenty of homonyms.

It's homophone. This isn't the first time I've seen this misusage. Keep it from spreading.

[realmayo]

This isn't the first time I've seen this misusage.

Fair enough. Pinyin has plenty of homonyms!