native level

[jkhsu]

What's the point about this question?

I think you know very well the point of that question.

Nevertheless I would be more likely to believe such a claim from the Mandarin speaker than your claim about English speakers.

Do you have something against native English speakers? Why make such a distinction?

I've seen and had myself many language debates between natives and non-natives where the non-native turned out to be right and the native speaker was wrong.

I don't think I've mentioned anything about knowledge of grammar, vocab, etc. I think I pretty much focused on native level conversation.

Also, I don't know why you have such a problem with me describing what I've encountered from my own experience here in the USA talking to other native English speakers and non-native English speakers.

[renzhe]

To be honest, native speakers often spot very minor things subconsciously and are really good at telling non-native speakers apart. I mean, language is one of the most developed areas of our cognition, as our societies depend on it, and our ears are extremely good at picking these things out without knowing why. It's like recognising faces.

Personally, I've managed to pass for a native speaker a couple of times after many years of immersion (not in Chinese, of course), but I've given up the hope of being indistinguishable from a native speaker. Sooner or later, the natives pick up on the tiniest of inconsistencies and figure you out. The longest I've lasted was about half an hour in an informal setting, before they latched onto something, I think it was mixing accents I picked up from different friends. Honestly, a correct pronunciation and a close-to-native comfort and ability in using the language in everyday situations is a perfectly fine goal, and a slight accent that doesn't get in the way is nothing to be ashamed of.

That said, if you see somebody who "looks foreign" -- and keep in mind that this is much easier in China and some parts of Europe than it is in the USA -- you will already be in the critical mood, and this is why most anecdotal evidence is suspicious. If you are introduced to somebody as "here is a foreigner, how good is his English?" then the test is doomed, as people will even start imagining things in the absence of real issues. They will always find something.

I can remember a funny episode when I was in a bar in Beijing hanging out with a group of Croatians (it's a very very strange story) and mistook a Chinese guy for a native Croatian, from my hometown. He was facing the other way and I was a bit surprised because the voice was new, so I assumed it was a Croatian friend of the people I was with. It turns out that the guy went to Croatia to study and learned the language while there. I'm a meticulous, picky bastard, the type who complains about articles in newspapers for perceived lack of style, yet this guy flew right under my radar. It didn't occur to me for a second that there could be a Chinese guy in Beijing speaking fluent Croatian -- i mean, the idea is quite preposterous. Had he been facing my way before I heard him speak, I'm sure that I'd have given him the standard "wow, not bad for a foreigner" treatment because I'd be in the "spot the mistake" frame of mind.

[Silent]

My problem is that you seem to state that the simple fact someone is distinguishable from a native speaker the level is below that of a native speaker. Many of those native speakers mix up even basic things like me and I. I don't say how you can say there level is higher than that of an eloquent professor with a non-native accent (but likely closer to the standard) only based on a gut feeling, only based on the simple fact that you can distinguish him as a non-native.

[jkhsu]

@renzhe: Great post. Thank you. I agree with everything you said there. Thumbs up. I've also mentioned that I talk to plenty of people who are ethnic Chinese, Indian, etc. who speak native English to me. I also don't go around doubting people because of their accent.

[jkhsu]

My problem is that you seem to state that the simple fact someone is distinguishable from a native speaker the level is below that of a native speaker

Fair enough. I am actually not talking about technical terms like grammar and the amount of vocab. I've messed up grammar myself and have even gotten corrected by my native Chinese friend before. I also want to clarify that I'm not talking about pronunciation either. I think it was decided long ago (in this thread) that it's pretty hard to get pronunciation perfectly right as an adult. I've also mentioned in other posts that I don't think pronunciation = fluency. I also don't care to carry on this particular debate any longer and just point to renzhe's post #282.

[Silent]

but I've given up the hope of being indistinguishable from a native speaker.

Imho there's no point in such a goal. Language is meant as a tool to communicate. There is no added value in passing for a native except for a few very rare situations/goals. Fluency with a decent vocabulary, grammar and pronunciation is good enough for communicating. If you feel like learning more learning another language has far more added value.

My English skills have declined due to a lot of communication with often low level non natives. I gained however that many non natives complement me with my clear pronunciation and making communication relatively easy for them. For me that's far more valuable than passing for a native.

[Silent]

Fair enough. I am actually not talking about technical terms like grammar and the amount of vocab. I've messed up grammar myself and have even gotten corrected by my native Chinese friend before. I also want to clarify that I'm not talking about pronunciation either. I think it was decided long ago (in this thread) that it's pretty hard to get pronunciation perfectly right as an adult. I've also mentioned in other posts that I don't think pronunciation = fluency. I also don't care to carry on this particular debate any longer and just point to renzhe's post #282.

I think you've been clear enough. It's a gut feeling and nothing rational at all.

[renzhe]

Just to get back to the point:

Mandarin:

Cantonese:

Shanghainese:

Afaik, they all learned as grown-ups. I'll be happy with that level. So rest assured, it's doable, you just need to work at it.

If you want to go really hardcore, Ai Hua started learning Mandarin when she was 7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noyCrTCleZ0

[skylee]

I like the story of the Croatian-speaking Chinese. How long would you say he had spent on studying the language before he could fool (not intentionally) a native like you. Two years? Did he sound well-educated? Could he discuss the history and literature of your country?

[anonymoose]

I don't think being able to correct native speakers at their own language proves much. My Chinese is far from native-like, yet I am frequently able to spot "mistakes" in native speakers' Chinese. The fact is that everyone makes mistakes to a certain extent in their own language, be it out of a lack of knowledge or simply just sloppiness.

[jkhsu]

Shanghainese:

I've seen those videos before. According to my Shanghainese friend, the girl speaking Shanghainese is not at the level of the other two. Julien Gaudfroy is pretty awesome though.

[rezaf]

Julian Gaudfroy is more than just awesome. I had seen him a few times on TV and always wanted to know his name.

[sleepy eyes]

I do not want to sit on a high horse, but 99% of the discussions here are stemming from a complete misunderstanding of basic terms, like "grammar". For instance, a lot of what people assume are "grammar mistakes" are neither grammatical (in any meaningful sense) or... mistakes, at least in the sense people are assuming. I think it's a real shame that Linguistics is not taught in schools. Few subjects fascinate people as much and pretty much no other causes as much popular misunderstanding, not even hard sciences.

[sleepy eyes]

As for an educated adult learner being "superior" to a poorly educated native speaker in his own language... I'm just speechless. lol

[daofeishi]

I do not want to sit on a high horse, but 99% of the discussions here are stemming from a complete misunderstanding of basic terms, like "grammar".

Can you point out what misunderstandings you are talking about?

[realmayo]

Julian Gaudfroy -- I met him a while ago and was disappointed because to my ears he spoke like a foreigner with excellent Chinese, ie clearly not Chinese. But given that everyone says his Chinese is so good, I imagine that I only thought this because I could see he wasn't Chinese? A bit like renzhe and his Croatian above. Then again, at the time I didn't know who Julian was, maybe if I had known his Chinese was held to be fantastic, I would have "heard" him speaking even better Chinese? Or perhaps, sourly and jealously, I would have tried to find any flaws I could!!

[renzhe]

I like the story of the Croatian-speaking Chinese. How long would you say he had spent on studying the language before he could fool (not intentionally) a native like you. Two years? Did he sound well-educated? Could he discuss the history and literature of your country?

Nope, but he spoke about everyday things with such ease, using slang and local accent, that it fooled me. He studied at the University of Zagreb for 5 years, then moved to Belgrade, where the language is very close.

Perhaps I'm exaggerating years later, and perhaps he wasn't all that good, but I do remember being mightily impressed.

According to my Shanghainese friend, the girl speaking Shanghainese is not at the level of the other two.

Yes, I was told the same thing. Still, seeing a foreigner speak Shanghainese fluently, and interviewing people in the street without them batting an eyelid was too cool not to link.

Julian Gaudfroy -- I met him a while ago and was disappointed because to my ears he spoke like a foreigner with excellent Chinese, ie clearly not Chinese.

It's not that everything he says sounds perfect. It's that he uses so many small interjections that only native speakers use, and that his rhythm is native-like and that he even breathes at the right places, that people are more likely to guess that he's a native speaker with imperfect putonghua than a French guy who learned as an adult.

Even native speakers find it hard to figure him out if you find a good clip of him, in my experience.

[realmayo]

I wonder what is the maximum number of posts before it all comes down to people discussing what "fluency" means?

[rezaf]

@Renzhe: I can't open youtube. What's the name of those two who speak Cantonese and Shanghainese? Maybe I can find something on youku.

[rezaf]

I played about one minute of one of Julian Godfroy's interviews for a few Chinese friends without telling them who he was and no one noticed that he was a foreigner which means that he is truly amazing but after watching some of Aihua's interviews I am beginning to see the difference between them. There is something inside Aihua that says her identity is "mostly" Chinese and that she thinks like a Chinese, whereas Julian clearly doesn't think like a Chinese but he is so smart that he can cousciously imitate Chinese people and maintain it for a good few minutes. I still think that a smart and hardworking foreigner can acheive very high levels in Chinese grammar, vocabulary and everything else but probably there is some kind of internal structure of the language that can not be achieved easily. I still haven't figured out what exactly it is but probably all those Chinese people who are not very proficient in Mandarin still sound native because they have it and all those smart foreigners who are clearly better than them in Mandarin pronunciation, vocabulary etc. don't have it.