native level

[anonymoose]

I agree. Learning "grammar, vocabulary and everything else" can be done by anyone with enough time and effort, and clearly these things are necessary for a high level of Chinese, but in the end, there is still the naturalness of a native speaker that is not guaranteed just by have good grammar and a large vocabulary.

[renzhe]

@Renzhe: I can't open youtube. What's the name of those two who speak Cantonese and Shanghainese?

I'm afraid they didn't have any useful information. The Cantonese speaking guy is Iranian-American, the Shanghainese part was from a daily show from a Shanghainese TV station.

[jkhsu]

I just want to state that while Ai Hua's Mandarin is clearly native sounding, she's probably (my guess) famous because there just aren't that many non-Chinese who grew up in China. In the USA, it's a dime a dozen to find immigrants who came here at a young age and have native English pronunciation.

But Julien Gaudfroy is really amazing, especially when it comes to pronunciation. Here's a link to a discussion on Julien Gaudfroy in this forum.

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/12767-laowai-on-chinese-radio/page__view__findpost__p__120030

Article about him:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-11/16/content_6259286.htm

[rezaf]

I just want to state that while Ai Hua's Mandarin is clearly native sounding, she's probably (my guess) famous because there just aren't that many non-Chinese who grew up in China.

She is native to me but having said that I don't think that I can consider her as a very proficient native. She sounds like like one of my classmates who was born in China and immigrated to the US when she was 8. She pauses a lot and says too many 就是,... and there is still traces of American accent in her Chinese. Probably she doesn't even have Julian's command over Mandarin(when he is focused) but still she is the only one who has that native factor and even her face's movements are like Chinese people.

[skylee]

Having read rezaf's post, I have started to wonder what "native" means. Why, some people can talk well, some can't. Too many pauses? Too many 就是? Accent? Pronunciation not standard enough? Wow, you guys expect so much of a "native".

[rezaf]

Well we are not the kind of foreigners who would jump up and down after someone says a few sentences in Chinese. We are here to brutally analyze these people probably because most of us still hope that one day we can get close to a native speaker's level but now I'm beginning to think that that naturalness or native factor doesn't have much to do with vocabulary, grammar and even pronunciation. It's more about someone's identity and values that have been taught to him as a child. In that case no matter how much I love Chinese culture I don't think that I can and want to change my identity as an Iranian and therefore won't be able to think like a Chinese.

[anonymoose]

I even pause when I speak English...I guess I'm not a native speaker of any language then...

[rezaf]

I even pause when I speak English...I guess I'm not a native speaker of any language then...

No I mean she is a native speaker even though she has those problems. Kind of wanted to prove my theory about identity as the major factor.

[xiaocai]

I should probably stop claiming myself as a "native Mandarin speaker" after reading this thread. It's too hard to be one.

[jkhsu]

She sounds like like one of my classmates who was born in China and immigrated to the US when she was 8.

@rezaf: I assume you are talking about your classmate's Chinese right? That's considered her heritage language (assuming she grew up in the USA) and not "native" language anymore. There is a difference. While she probably pronounces native like, she would not be at the same level as someone who grew up in China and finished high school there. But, your friend's English should be pretty close to native level (if not native level), assuming she did well in school in the USA.

[rezaf]

The thing I said about too many pauses, 就是 and American accent is about Aihua but my classmate also had very similar problems. Of course her Chinese was much better than most Chinese Americans I know who grew up in the US because her parents had her go to some Chinese classes. I don't know the exact difference between the native and heritage language but whatever it is they sound very similar to me.

[jkhsu]

Here's a wikipedia link about heritage language (not sure if you can access it)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritage_language

From what I understand, heritage speakers can have native level pronounciation but their language level is not native because they grew up in a country where the dominant language is not their mother tongue. I live in the USA so I've met many like your friend. I also know the Chinese classes here do not compare to someone who passed high school in China. So for everyday type language, your friend can pass as a native but if she had to do some speech debate, she would lag behind someone in China who has finished high school there.

[carlo]

There’s really very little science in these definitions. Native speakers in linguistics AFAIK are postulated: ie, they are assumed to exist so that they can be studied. There is no objective test to validate if one is or isn’t (you could do a Turing test where other native speakers have to guess whether the person behind the screen is a native, but it’s circular). It’s all tied up with complex issues of self and group identity, so go there at your peril.

About Aihua’s “American accent” (which I never heard, but I admittedly don't watch much TV), I’m often around bilingual children and adults, and I can tell you that language interference is a very common phenomenon. Sometimes, elements of one language seep unconsciously into the other. It does not imply that one isn’t fully proficient at either of the two languages.

[rezaf]

In that case i don't think Aihua is a native speaker but she has the language ability of a good heritage speaker so maybe we can categorize her as post-heritage speaker or something.

[Silent]

Having read rezaf's post, I have started to wonder what "native" means. Why, some people can talk well, some can't. Too many pauses? Too many 就是? Accent? Pronunciation not standard enough? Wow, you guys expect so much of a "native".

I guess the definition of native is not too hard, Someone who is born and grew up in a certain language environment. Native is independent of language skills but has only to do with the environment in which one grew up. The problem is with 'native level' from jkhsu's posts it seems 'native level' means you must be indistinguishable. If that's the definition it has nothing to do with language skills any more. Many natives have low language skills too. To me native level means meet the skills of the average native in vocabulary, grammar and pronunciation with comparable effort. Yes, that means it may be very clear that you're not a native.

To be indistinguishable from a native you need also the cultural background they have. The words and sentence structures one chooses depend on the cultural background and values someone has. Even within a language there are many subcultures with their own 'lingo'. Also pronunciation depends on background and exposure unless huge efforts are made. Non natives have a different exposure, often less regional confined exposure and have an influence of a native language that is learned well before they start to learn the new language. It's virtually impossible to become indistinguishable from a native. Even a native that doesn't use his native tongue for a while may start to sound non-native.

[jkhsu]

In that case i don't think Aihua is a native speaker but she has the language ability of a good heritage speaker so maybe we can categorize her as post-heritage speaker or something.

I am not sure I understand your point. In Aihua's case, her heritage language is English. She grew up in China so her dominant, and I'd say native language is Chinese. I closed my eyes and re-watched that video from renzhe's post and I seriously can not tell that she's not Chinese. But then again, that's just my assessment. I've heard a lot of American accented Chinese, including myself, and Aihua is nowhere near that. Perhaps some natives can tell that she's not Chinese over the phone but I bet many can't.

The problem is with 'native level' from jkhsu's posts it seems 'native level' means you must be indistinguishable.

I believe I said several times that I consider many people from India, SIngapore, etc. at native level English. I know they are not from the USA and have a different cultural background but their English (assuming they grew up there studying English from a kid through adulthood) is at native level. What I am debating here is how "common" is it for an adult learner who started learning English say in college to achieve conversational level of a native who spoke the language their entire lives. I focused specifically on conversation because I believe that's the most difficult part to master. Yes, there are obviously people who are at that native level and who started learning as adults. But from my experience, it's just not that common.

The funny thing is you keep arguing with me on English while you admit yourself that you are not a native English speaker. Yet you seem to know so much about how native English speakers think. I don't think I'd dare to even argue about your native language because I'm not a native speaker in your language. And by the way, just because I know some Chinese doesn't mean I know how native Chinese speakers feel when they talk to non-native Chinese speakers. I am not sure when that will happen, perhaps never.

This is a free forum. You have your opinions and I have mine. But at the very least you should take my opinions as a data point from a native English speaker.

[Silent]

their English (assuming they grew up there studying English from a kid through adulthood) is at native level.

If they learn english from an early childhood to me that means they are native. For many countries with a lot of small tribal languages and a lingua franca exactly that happens. They basicly grow up multilingual.

What I am debating here is how "common" it is for an adult learner who started learning English say in college to achieve conversational level of a native who spoke the language their entire lives.

And I'm debating that you confuse native (which still may be crap) with native LEVEL which imho should be measured by size of vocabulary, number of errors made, distance of pronunciation to the standard pronunciation etc. Level has nothing to do with being (in)distinguishable from a native speaker.

[gato]

She is native to me but having said that I don't think that I can consider her as a very proficient native. She sounds like like one of my classmates who was born in China and immigrated to the US when she was 8. She pauses a lot and says too many 就是,... and there is still traces of American accent in her Chinese. Probably she doesn't even have Julian's command over Mandarin(when he is focused) but still she is the only one who has that native factor and even her face's movements are like Chinese people.

I agree with rezaf. There are two separate issues here. One is sounding native. The other is the level of sophistication. She sounds native, but her vocabulary isn't very sophisticated. It's the pause solely, because there are many native speakers whose language is at a very high level but who speak slowly and are very careful in choosing their words. But in her case, she seems to have a hard time talking about more complicated things. She does say “就是” quite a bit, which is probably equivalent to saying "you know" a lot in English. In terms of "sounding native", her Chinese seems a bit more natural-sounding than Julian's or Dashan's, but I would say that Dashan's vocabulary/sophistication is of a higher level.

I would be curious as to she sounds like speaking English.

[jkhsu]

I don't think I'm confused at all here. Conversational fluency at the native level should be an important aspect in your measurement. I'd actually drop "distance of pronunciation to the standard pronunciation" for English just because so many people speak English with different accents. Let's take renzhe's quote that I agree with:

"Somebody is fluent at a native level if they can discuss the same topics using the same grammar and the same vocabulary as a native speaker, with an effort comparable to the effort they have when doing the same in their native language."

Let's look at this example:

From my experience I've talked to:

(1) A customer service representative from India

(2) A co-worker from the UK

(3) A recent immigrant from China who just started learning English

All three do not sound American to me but as I've said before, that's not part of my assessment. From my experience, I classified the conversation with the customer service representative from India and the co-worker from the UK at native level English. However, the conversation with the recent immigrant from China who just started learning English was not at native level English.

This is an extreme example to show that one can distinguish English levels in conversation regardless of accent. It's just been my experience that the people who I could tell were lacking in their conversation abilities when compared to other native English speakers were ones who started learning English as adults. That's all I am saying.

[jkhsu]

I would be curious as to she sounds like speaking English.

Try searching in youtube for "Charlotte MacInnis". You should able to find many of her "Growing up with Chinese" videos. She speaks quite a bit of English there. She seems pretty fluent in American English to me.