native level

[rezaf]

I didn’t say she was a heritage learner but I said her Chinese was very similar to a heritage speaker I knew and if I compare her to a Chinese American who has lived in China for the first 8 years of her life and has partly continued her Chinese education in the US then it means that Aihua’s Chinese level is very high and I’m not comparing her accent to just any kind of American accented Chinese. However there are very very small things that sound non-native to me. First of all in this videohttp://v.ku6.com/sho...E36RwoyEVr.html she pauses a lot and says way too many 就是s especially from 2:10 to 3:00 which means she can’t find the words she wants to say as fast as most average native speakers. I have to say that my friend wouldn’t pause too many times like her but their accents are very similar. It’s almost impossible to say which words she pronounces incorrectly because as I said it’s about very small issues like putting too much stress on one syllable or things like that but in general there is an American accent hidden very deep inside. For example in this video http://v.ku6.com/sho...5fkm81ES_1.html there is something wrong with 我问过他／那么 at 2:00 or 不一样 /当然/八八 at 7:45. However I am also not a native speaker and I would like to know what Kenny, Xiaocai or other native Mandarin speakers think about those minor pronunciation issues.

[Silent]

"Somebody is fluent at a native level if they can discuss the same topics using the same grammar and the same vocabulary as a native speaker, with an effort comparable to the effort they have when doing the same in their native language."

How do you define same topic, same grammar and the same vocabulary as a native speaker? I mean even among natives this varies hugely. Some don't get any further than some simple chitchat while others can speak about dozens of fairly specialized subjects. The same thing can be expressed correctly in many ways? Why should I use the same formulations? Even if the same formulations, if british, australian and US english is mixed up it may give a very odd impression, leave alone if the English from some african countries is added to the mix. By what you expressed before I don't believe you would consider that native level. At least I can't imagine that it would sound natural to a native or even many non-natives.

If you leave out the 'same as native speaker' and would make the definition "Somebody is fluent at a native level if they can discuss a variety of topics using a comparable level of grammar and vocabulary as a native speaker of equal or higher level of sophistication, with an effort comparable to the effort they have when doing the same in their native language." we might agree on the definition. Still, there would be a lot of scope for discussion of what is comparable. I mean, one may not have the specialist vocabulary for a certain subject that is needed to discuss it while it may be available in the native language or the other way around only because the subject is strongly cultural, because it's mainly discussed in a certain limited setting etc. There are subjects I find easier to discuss in Dutch, for other subjects it's easier to discuss them in English and I've to search for words if I really need to talk about them in Dutch. If I reverse the definition that would mean my native language is not at a native level as I'm unable to discuss some topics in Dutch that I can discus in another language. Granted my Dutch is far from perfect, but non-native doesn't sound right to me.

[renzhe]

Most native people are not able to tell Aihua apart from a native. Just try it without showing them the images and without telling them what they are watching.

The interview I linked is not her best, you can see that she was put on the spot at some places and was quite nervous. In other shows, she it totally and completely native but, alas, I can't find the link again.

This is the "spot the accent" mentality I mentioned in one of my last posts.

[anonymoose]

First of all in this videohttp://v.ku6.com/sho...E36RwoyEVr.html she pauses a lot and says way too many 就是s especially from 2:10 to 3:00 which means she can’t find the words she wants to say as fast as most average native speakers.

I don't think you can really judge her Chinese based on that clip. I mean, elsewhere she's proved that she's pretty fluent. I think her lack of fluency in that clip is more due to the nature of the subject, like when your girlfriend has just squeezed her size 20 ass into a size 16 dress and then asks you if she looks fat in it, you'd also be pausing a lot and saying way too many 就是s.

[rezaf]

I could only find those two clips in my post. Are there any better clips of her?

[gato]

http://www.college.c...e_macinnis.html

A TV star in China, Charlotte MacInnis '02 hopes to work there and in the U.S. after completing her theater degree

By Laura Butchy

Born in Michigan, MacInnis moved to China with her family when she was 7, when her father returned there to take a new job.

Though MacInnis's parents planned to stay abroad for only a few years, seven years later the family had moved from China to Taiwan and finally settled in Beijing.

Home-schooled until they were 14, Charlotte and her older sister, Mika, took classes in Chinese and were bilingual by the time they entered the International Chinese High School in Beijing. Government-run, the school caters to international students but offers a Chinese curriculum and Chinese instructors. For her senior year, MacInnis transferred to the International School of Beijing, where the American Embassy-run classes were in English.

She went to Columbia for undergrad. Her formal schooling in China seems fairly limited.

[rezaf]

I'm wondering if these people that we are talking about ever read this forum.

[rezaf]

I don't think you can really judge her Chinese based on that clip. I mean, elsewhere she's proved that she's pretty fluent. I think her lack of fluency in that clip is more due to the nature of the subject,

Julian was also asked the same question, it's good to see his reaction for comparison. http://tv.people.com.cn/GB/166419/14958658.html He has fewer 就是s and his choice of vocabulary is clearly of a higher level but I think I heard one or two problems in his pronunciation for example in 外国人 at 2:10 which sounds a little bit like 方言.

[jkhsu]

I didn’t say she was a heritage learner but I said her Chinese was very similar to a heritage speaker I knew and if I compare her to a Chinese American who has lived in China for the first 8 years of her life and has partly continued her Chinese education in the US then it means that Aihua’s Chinese level is very high and I’m not comparing her accent to just any kind of American accented Chinese.

Ok, I see what you mean now. After looking at a couple of clips I sort of agree with you. I've definitely seen heritage Chinese in the USA who have kept up their Chinese (through Chinese school and speaking with parents) that are probably at her level in conversation. However, I am basing this only on the few clips I've seen.

From her profile, she was home schooled until 14. That means she probably didn't get a lot of exposure to other Chinese speaking kids as much as a typical native in China. Most heritage speakers here in the USA have gone to school here where they were exposed to English all day and speak English almost exclusively with friends. That probably explains why Aihua's Chinese is perhaps a bit below that of a native Chinese speaker. However, I think she is probably more bilingual though. Anyways, to me she's native sounding enough and if I can get my Chinese that good, I'd be set.

[rezaf]

Actually this topic and discussing Dashan, Julian and Aihua (probably the top 3 foreign Mandarin learners at present) has given me a lot of perspective about how I want to improve my Mandarin and what my limitations are.

Aihua: Her Chinese sounds very natural and her identity is partly Chinese. She can talk about daily stuff very fluently (almost like a native speaker) but because of limited formal education in Chinese probably is not as comfortable as a native speaker in discussing complicated topics.

Julian: He is probably the smartest of all three. When he is focused he is completely indistinguishable from native speakers and can comfortably discuss daily stuff and complicated things at an average level.

Dashan: He has a relatively deep knowledge of Chinese and can comfortably discuss all kinds of topics at a level higher than the other two but his accent and phrasing is more distinguishable from native speakers.

If I want to choose a role model I don’t think that Aihua is a good choice because a big part of her personality is Chinese and personality is not something that can be changed easily in adults. Julian is also not a good choice because he is probably more gifted than the rest of us. At moments even his pronunciation and phrasing can become completely indistinguishable from a native speaker but if we pay close attention we’ll see that at those moments he is consciously imitating a Chinese mind and his words do not really reflect his own personality.

Dashan is also smarter than most learners. He was also a little bit like Julian before but now his Chinese is very mature and although it is distinguishable from native speakers, it sounds very natural to me. As though he is a Canadian guy who can speak a very high level Chinese not someone who is faking something. So all in all I like Dashan’s Chinese more than the rest of them.

Probably after a few more years in China a small part of my personality will become Chinese which will help me to sound more and more natural but I doubt that I will ever become completely native and that’s why I won’t force it too much. As I’m learning Chinese for understanding Chinese philosophy/TCM and not for becoming a showman I don’t think there is any need to force my pronunciation to become native, therefore I am going to spend most of my time on reading and writing so that after 10 years I have a mature Chinese for discussing and learning those subjects as an Iranian.

[realmayo]

at those moments he is consciously imitating a Chinese mind and his words do not really reflect his own personality.

Very interesting you raise this. Without commenting on the guy in question, I wonder if speaking in a "natural" way in a foreign language requires a different personality, even if it's only a very very slight difference. For instance, declining a request in Chinese might be more natural if you said something like "it's not very convenient" or "maybe" but if you used this to decline a request in English it would sound awkward.

Now, if you've spent enough time speaking in Chinese with Chinese people, it will become natural to use the Chinese way to decline a request. The question becomes, has it become a natural way to translate "sorry, I'm afraid not" in English into "it's not very convenient" in Chinese, or has the way you decline requests changed -- ie your personality changed -- when you're speaking in Chinese?

[rezaf]

Of course you need to say whatever is common to say in the language you are learning and translating sentences from your own language would be awkward but what I said is mostly about very smaller details particularly in phrasing and how you express your idea in general. For example from childhood I have learned that I should bravely express what I think and use simple and direct sentences for that but whenever I give my essays to my friends for correction although they can't find any technical problems they change and hide all of my ideas and direct sentences under a lot of unnecessary indirect and difficult words to make them more Chinese.

I believe that if we learn a language in the right environment we will gradually absorb the culture and personality of the native speakers of that language to some extent so that we sound more and more natural but it's a very slow process and probably it is impossible to change yourself completely to a native speaker unless you give up your own identity which is not doable for an adult. That's why I think this process shouldn't be forced otherwise we will sound fake. just 順其自然.

[renzhe]

I often notice that people have different personalities when speaking different languages.

Has nobody else noticed this?

[rezaf]

Yes. English, Farsi and Chinese are all in different parts of my brain and it's like I have 3 personalities and I need to shift to them in order to speak the language I want but those personalities are all connected and influence each other.

[realmayo]

Definitely.

[renzhe]

How do you define same topic, same grammar and the same vocabulary as a native speaker? I mean even among natives this varies hugely.

That's why I said as "a" native speaker.

Any one will do. But just to be pedantic and avoid corner cases, any grown-up native speaker who has finished elementary school will do.

[Silent]

I often notice that people have different personalities when speaking different languages.

I think this has less to do with language and more with the situation. People change personality based on their situation. People are different when their colleagues are around, they are with their partner or with their friends. It's a know fact that if you place people in a group they will become more like the group members.

That's why I said as "a" native speaker.

any grown-up native speaker who has finished elementary school will do.

Exactly this is why I gave the example of mixing up different varieties of English. If you mix UK English, US english, etc there is no way that this is going to sound natural to a native speaker. Some people claim not sounding natural means by definition not native level. I think there is a discrepancy between the definition and the claim that it has to sound natural to a native.

[renzhe]

If you mix UK English, US english, etc there is no way that this is going to sound natural to a native speaker.

Since no single native speaker speaks like that (or it is exceedingly rare), such cases are not covered by my definition. I said "a native speaker", not any random combination of native speakers ;)

[Silent]

I said "a native speaker", not any random combination of native speakers ;)

Fair enough, so someone speaking with perfect brittish grammar and vocabulary and perfect australian accent is not at a native level and some uneducated lowlife living in the gutter is.... Essentially we're back where we started, you're only of native level if you're indistinguishable from a native.

Let's just wrap it up now I still have the comfort that my low level non native English allows me to communicate with more people and with less effort then the fat accented high level English of quite a few natives.

[jkhsu]

If I want to choose a role model I don’t think that Aihua is a good choice because a big part of her personality is Chinese and personality is not something that can be changed easily in adults. Julian is also not a good choice because he is probably more gifted than the rest of us.

I like your analysis and for the most part, agree. As amazing as Da Shan is, he learned Chinese as an adult and immersed himself in China to get to his level. There are others with a similar background like Daniel Newham (大牛) who speaks Mandarin fluently as well. However, I am not sure I totally agree with you on Aihua's personality aspect though. Sure, she's part Chinese, but the biggest reason why she's not a good role model for me is because she grew up in China. Since I'm not 7 years old, that's out of the question for me.

As I’m learning Chinese for understanding Chinese philosophy/TCM and not for becoming a showman I don’t think there is any need to force my pronunciation to become native, therefore I am going to spend most of my time on reading and writing so that after 10 years I have a mature Chinese for discussing and learning those subjects as an Iranian.

So here's the video of the Iranian American who speaks American English, Cantonese and Mandarin that renzhe posted (I found it in youku). I've included the captions from the youtube site for your reference:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTg4NzI0MDY4.html

From youtube:

"Iranian American Speaking Fluent Chinese (both Cantonese and Mandarin) Started learning Chinese at 19 and now speaks perfect Chinese in both Cantonese and Mandarin!

外國人識講廣東話同普通話

伊朗出世美國人，19歲去加拿大溫哥華做義工開始學習廣東話，隨後在猶他大學修讀中文與會計。

普通話雖然聽得出口音，但是流利過絕大多數香港人"

So rezaf, are we going to see you in one of these videos a few years down the road?