Benny Lewis' 3-month quest to become fluent in Mandarin

[anonymoose]

So many people keep saying "he claimed this and that", when I never did any such thing

The title of your video "Fluent Mandarin in 3 Months" at least is an implicit claim that you would be fluent in 3 months. However, you have not reached fluency by any standard.

As I stated in my previous post, I think you made good progress in the short time you had.

What I think irritated people here more than anything else was your initial arrogant and condescending attitude, telling us, many of whom already speak several languages fluently and have many years of experience with Mandarin, that learning Mandarin is no challange, or no more of a challenge than learning a european language, as though we have all been blindly struggling with inefficient methods for all these years.

Many beginners participate in these forums, and on the whole, I think people receive a lot of support and encouragement. The difference is that most beginners come with a humble attitude and defer to those with more experience. On the other hand, your arrogance set you up for the opprobrium that you understandably received, and the unfortunate outcome is that you've probably garnered less praise for your achievement than it objectively deserves.

Yes, there are "so many expats in Taiwan and China who can't even muster out a few phrases", but you have to bear in mind that not everybody comes with the objective of learning the language. Some might ostensibly come to learn Chinese, with the real intent of just having a jolly for a few years, and unsurprisingly make little progress. On the other hand, I think most learners with a serious attitude can make significant progress just as you have done. And let's not forget that many serious learners also have other commitments such as work and family that prevent them from devoting all their time to studying and practicing. So I think it is important to maintain some humility, because even if one's achievements surpass those of the majority, there is still likely to be a sizable minority who are at an even higher level.

[irishpolyglot]

Humility is an excellent quality in a person in general. But in a language learner confidence is key. I'll be straight with people learning languages that they need to be more bold, but I'm always humble when discussing my Mandarin level with natives, and you will find many people who know me in person have found me quite humble. See this post for example.

If I wasn't as confident as I've been, there is no way I would have reached this level in Mandarin, (as "unimpressive" as this some in this forum may find it).

My frank way of writing certainly invites criticism, so my apologies if people took that as "arrogance" or a "condescending attitude". I certainly get plenty of that from others myself (including this forum) and it's no fun. I do it so much because in my experience it has been very effective to get many people to work harder - obviously it's not something experienced learners care to read, but I do feel a lot more people need a fire lit under their ass, so I will continue to write in this way, hoping beginners will read it, even though experienced learners with a different strategy will find it annoying.

Yes, of course many people here know a lot more than me about many things, but please don't overlook the fact that I have 10 years of experience in immersion environments learning languages.

It's a pity so many people in this forum can't see the good I'm trying to do here. Based on the response from many people who are starting off, and feel pushed to try harder, I will indeed keep it up. Annoying a few people who really don't need any help and will be annoyed because I disagree with them so directly and say it with a lack of humility, for the greater good of helping those who do need a push, is worth it.

[imron]

It's a pity so many people in this forum can't see the good I'm trying to do here

I think many can, it's just they disagree with the method. Are encouraging beginners and not annoying more experienced learners really that mutually exclusive?

What if you could fire up learners across all swathes of the learning spectrum? Wouldn't that be even better? Is it not worth reflecting on the things that have caused some people to react so negatively to your message and consider whether or not there might be ways to remove or tone done the factors that cause the negative reaction while still preserving the encouragement?

[irishpolyglot]

"Are encouraging beginners and not annoying more experienced learners really that mutually exclusive?" Definitely not, but in my particular approach it seems it is, since I encourage people to be bold and confident, as I feel it's such an important key factor of a successful language learner and others criticise me for not being humble. This does imply some lack of compatability, since it's clear here that people insist on humility in Chinese, and I will continue to urge people to be much more confident.

Firing up learners across all swathes sounds quite noble, but that's not something I'm skilled at. And to be frank again, I see people here not doing such a great job at it either - even though they'd do so much better than me in inspiring intermediate and advanced learners. The difference I want to make is to help beginners and inspire monolinguals to take on the challenge of learning a language, and the amount I've done this so far from all the stories I've been hearing from my blog readers encourages me to continue. Others can inspire advanced learners much better than I ever will, so I simply ignore them in my writing. A great quote from Bill Cosby goes:

"I don't know the secret to success, but the secret to failure is trying to please everybody"

What I would do differently next time is engage in certain endless discussions a lot less, and be more concise in my answer, as this invites a lot less nitpicking. All the arguing gave people an impression of me that is different to what you'd get on my blog or meeting me in person. It's just hard for me to let it lie out there when people say things that I see as ultimately discouraging beginner learners who are under more pressure to improve quickly than a language enthusiast, but I have to accept that it's the way it is and find a middle ground better in future.

[imron]

This does imply some lack of compatability, since it's clear here that people insist on humility in Chinese, and I will continue to urge people to be much more confident.

For me at least, it's not so much the lack of humility, or urging people to be bold and confident, what tends to annoy me is more the "you're either with me or against me, and if you're against me, then you're the reason for everything wrong with language learning today" approach. Now that might be a slight exaggeration, but I mean according to your blog posts and videos, if I take what you say at face value then because of some of the views I hold, I am apparently a linguist, an academic, a perfectionist, an elitist, and horror upon horror - a language enthusiast (and probably a whole bunch of other things too, these were just the ones I could remember off the top of my head), and if people listen to my advice then they're going to be stuck in a quagmire of language learning that will prevent them achieving their full potential and so on and so on, blah blah blah.

Now by most definitions I wouldn't class myself as any of those things, except perhaps a language enthusiast, but my definition of what this means differs somewhat from yours so I don't think it applies here either. So despite finding that we agree on many things in our approach to language learning, your writing style often leaves little to no room for shades of grey - everything is black or white, and so you end up placing people who might otherwise agree with you in a box labelled 'teh enemy'.

[roddy]

As skylee suggests, please close this thread.

Not yet. There was plenty of interest in it, and the posts since reopening have been largely constructive, I thought. We'll review if and when the returns start to diminish. If you don't like it, don't read the topic. That's what I'd do, did I not feel some kind of responsibility to keep an eye on it.

If I was that good at languages, I'd get a job as an interpreter at the UN, I think. Or maybe teaching languages. This website + ebook problogger lark looks really quite bleak.

[realmayo]

Edit: lessons learned anyway eh? which is always a good thing.

[roddy]

Actually . . .gravitational pull of topic reasserts itself, efforts to turn off computer temporarily suspended . . . let me just address some of the comments about 'this forum' and the folk on it. Unless I'm mistaken Benny's only ever posted on one other topic, where his post actually got voted up more than any other this week. There's no knee-jerk anti-Benny reaction here, and the membership we have on board are by far and away one of the best-informed and most fair-minded bunch of people you'll find on the Internet (those of you who I think are idiots excluded, list of said idiots available by pm). If he'd come up with genuinely amazing results, there would have been genuine amazement.

[jkhsu]

I think another issue is the use of the word "fluent", which means different things to different people. A beginner's view of "fluent" is often quite different from that of an advanced learner. I've noticed that the more you know, the more you realize how far fluency is. I am totally taking a guess here but most of us mortals probably think someone like imron is already fluent, but I bet imron doesn't think he is yet.

A lot of these arguments stems from the fact that we all have different definitions of fluency in our minds. Just knowing the definitions of CEFR levels is not enough because until you've actually reached the "near" native level in Chinese, you won't really know what it means to be at that level. For example, a typical native English speaker who has no knowledge of Chinese won't know how many chengyu and poems that a typical educated native Chinese speaker can recite (or at least have some knowledge of) or the fact that there is such a thing as classical Chinese.

I think if Benny changed the "fluent" in his quest to "able to strike up a conversation", then many of these arguments would probably go away.

[Erbse]

waiting for the 3 month video....

[imron]

Unless I'm mistaken...

These things do happen.

[irishpolyglot]

Imron, sorry you feel that way, but that was never my message so you've simply misunderstood what I've written. I don't remember ever addressing linguists and the like as "teh enemy". Here is a post I've written about linguists, which I feel paints them in a positive light, while making it clear that I'm not one: http://www.fluentin3....com/linguists/

There is no "either or" as you suggest. I've stated (actually repeatedly in recent posts) that an intensive and stressful immersion approach such as what I discuss a lot is definitely not for all and that people should ignore my blog if their goals aren't similar to mine, so there is plenty of grey. I specifically write many times that people with more focus on reading, or especially those who really do have no pressure to learn quickly, should probably abandon my blog entirely.

Your summary is an unfair exaggeration. But I agree with you that my writing style is hard to deal with if you don't have similar goals to mine. This is unfortunate, but I refuse to water down my words to please everyone, as this will lose the potency of the message for the people I am trying to get through to.

@Erbse I've just confirmed that Chinesepod will let me record an interview with them next week. I'll also be talking to John (Sinosplice) separately and recording our chat to share online, and there will of course be a lot of other videos over the next 3 months.

[imron]

probably think someone like imron is already fluent, but I bet imron doesn't think he is yet.

That would be my elitist tendencies, or perhaps my perfectionist ones

In any case, the road ahead is never ending.....

[simplet]

I think the real mistake you made in approaching this is trying to use objective measurements like the "Common European Framework of Reference for Languages" levels. I think it's clear that you don't know what those levels entail, and yet you used this language at the beginning to set goals that were not just unrealistic but preposterous. Even now according to some of the quotes in this thread you seem to believe that you're solidly into B1 and approaching B2. You're not. You're objectively not. I have learned those levels extensively, even though I'm not the most experienced teacher, and I believe you're perhaps at a very low B1 level for your best competence, which is oral conversation, and somewhere ranging from high A1 to medium-high A2 for everything else. You're very far from a B1 level in oral comprehension for example, this point is indisputable. I can post some descriptors for the B1 level if you insist.

This tends to make people see you a little like that 'snake-oil salesman". Because those levels are supposed to be used for objective measurement, and you're turning them into some kind of subjective self-appreciation tool, and distorting them in the process.

[irishpolyglot]

"I think it's clear that you don't know what those levels entail" - just a reminder that I have a C2 in Spanish awarded by the Instituto Cervantes, a B2 from the Alliance Française (which I regretted doing at a lower level than I should have), and sat the German C2 and passed 4/5 out of it. I also prepared for the Italian CELI C2 for 4 entire months for most of my free time, but never sat it due to needing to leave Italy. Trust me, I know very well what those levels entail!!

So no need to post descriptions of what B1 is, I'm good I think I've sat enough exams to count myself as knowing the levels quite intimately. Your point that perhaps self evaluation is not possible is valid, so my use of the terms is ballpark for the moment and can't be taken absolutely seriously (especially since I'm only discussing the oral component of the exams, so I specifically say "spoken level" whenever I use the terms) but your point that I don't understand what the levels are is not valid.

[simplet]

I'm sorry but you really don't know what those levels are, the fact that you passed those tests simply means that your level in those languages was good enough to pass the test, not that you could administer the test yourself.

I'm going to post those B1 descriptors for oral comprehension and you tell me if that's you :

"I can :

- understand a majority of television programs

- follow the important points in a long discussion

- follow a conference or an exposé

- understand simple technical instructions"

and so on so forth...

[irishpolyglot]

Hmmm... despite me saying that I know what the levels are intimately, you still copied and pasted a description you found somewhere online?

If the Alliance Française and the Instituto Cervantes and the Goethe Institut can't be trusted to assign levels, then who can?

"The fact that you passed those tests simply means that your level in those languages was good enough to pass the test" - I get the feeling here that you are arguing for the sake of arguing, blissfully forgetting that a minute ago you said I had no idea what the levels are, and haven't retracted that statement. The tests I sat are very well designed, and show a lot more than simply the fact that I was able to pass a test. The very suggestion that actually holding a certificate counts for nothing, implies that the whole system should be ignored entirely.

This is one tangent that I'm not going to entertain further, but I'll close in agreement that I can indeed not claim to administer the tests myself, which I don't remember claiming in the first place. It should be clear that my guess of my level is just a guess. You'll see plenty of spontaneous conversation videos over the next 3 months, which you can decide for yourself what the level I have is - but keep in mind that based on what you've said, your guess will be as worthless as mine

[Erbse]

he got them from here:

http://europass.cede...age-levels-cefr

edit: sorry , the wording is not exactly the same, but goes in the same direction. Well, you could just look it up on wikipedia.

[simplet]

I didn't find these descriptors online, I found them in the book I used to study for my exam as a french teacher for foreign students. I am still not habilitated to administer those tests because I need more experience before I can do so, but I think I have a good enough understanding of what those levels are (at least they seemed to think so when I passed my exam).

Why should I retract the statement that you don't know what those levels entail? You obviously don't. I don't understand why you refuse to aknowledge it, once again those levels are not supposed to be open to interpretation.

[icebear]

I don't understand why you refuse to aknowledge it, once again those levels are not supposed to be open to interpretation.

I don't think its worthwhile to badger Benny excessively on this point; I'm skeptical that he would concede the point, no matter the evidence or logic provided. As I and others have mentioned above, he has a vested interest in preserving the persona displayed on his website, as a I take it he generates some income from his ardent viewership.

I agree with your points, simplet, but I don't think you should waste your time arguing them any more deeply; by page 13 in the thread we're all either preaching to choir or yelling at a wall.