Benny Lewis' 3-month quest to become fluent in Mandarin

[stoney]

Are you going to post a three month video? I can't wait to see it.

Can you do something like a series of random conversations with people on the street?

[jkhsu]

Can you do something like a series of random conversations with people on the street?

I'm not sure this would prove anything though. At the end of the day, this whole discussion is about the definition of "fluent". If "fluent" means the ability to "get by" at the basic conversation level, then I think Benny can do it (at least he's claimed that he's been doing this on Skype already). However, unless he puts up something similar to a Julien Gaudfroy video, I don't think any of the more advanced learners here are going to quit their jobs / school and move to China / Taiwan for 3 months.

A lot of you have probably seen Julien's 锵锵三人行 videos but check out this older one:

Watch from (02:00 - 03:45):

Benny, I think when you say "fluent in Chinese", this is the type of video many of us are expecting. I admit that this is probably beyond fluent but you get the point.

Edit: This was the type of video I expected when I first heard of this challenge. My expectations have gone way down already.

Edit #2: In hindsight, I probably should have posted a video of a regular learner achieving fluency. I didn't mean to say that one needs to reach Julien's level to be fluent, especially with his native sounding pronunciations. The nature of what he is saying though, should be achievable if given enough time.

[Erbse]

I didn't expect anything like Julien Gaudfroy. Far from it. But what we have seen is struggling with basic grammar and words. His 2.5 month (edit: removed weeks) video is halfway between A1 and A2. Unless a miracle happend in the last two weeks, we won't see a B1 level in the 3 months video.

[neverending]

@jkhsu: While I may disagree with Benny's definition of fluency, I think you've gone way too far the other way. That video you've posted not only shows native-level ability (well, well beyond basic fluency) with the language but a basic degree of performance skill. That is to say, even many untrained native Mandarin speakers would not be able to give as a fluent speech as Julien does in that video.

I think conversations with real people are more than capable of showing any level of fluency, so long as the topics are varied and complex enough to fully test vocabulary and grammar respectively, and you are careful to note how well the conversation "flows".

[jkhsu]

While I may disagree with Benny's definition of fluency, I think you've gone way too far the other way.

Yeah, point taken. I'm sure I can find other videos with more "normal" learners speaking fluent Mandarin. However, if someone is going to claim to be "fluent in Mandarin" with a website devoted just for that purpose, I'm going to expect more than just some guy doing his immersion program in Taiwan. I think it's about expectations. Benny led us to believe, with his language background and all, that this was going to be something amazing that we can all learn from.

As a learner, the term "fluent in Mandarin" means a lot to me. I've spent countless hours learning Mandarin and am not sure if I'll ever use that term for myself. To be honest, if I'm going to send a video link to a friend and say, "Hey, check out this video. This guy speaks fluent Mandarin", it's going to be closer to Julien's video. I agree that there are different "levels of fluency" but I just don't use the term "fluent" lightly.

Edit: In one of my other posts about finding work in China w/o knowing Chinese, I researched job listings in jobs.shanghaiexpat.com with various fluency requirements. The "fluent" level was above "advanced" and right below "native". "Conversational" on the other hand, was just above "basic".

[irishpolyglot]

I agree that demanding that I speak like this guy before I'm worthy of the title 'fluent' is nothing but ridiculous standards. I really wish people wouldn't confuse "fluent" and "bilingual", but it's clear that a lot of people in this forum do view them as synonyms. So saying that you "don't use the term lightly" is an understatement.

If you thought that I was claiming to sound like this guy in 3 months, then skepticism (and in some people's situations, name calling) is perhaps understandable, but I was clear from the start that I wanted to be comfortable in conversations in social contexts, even though I will slip up, and not necessarily able to handle technical discussions. I was sure I was very clear about this point.

It seems there are a lot of definition problems. For example, I find what some people here understand as "linguist" to "use the term lightly". When someone claims to be a linguist, then I personally expect them to have a diploma that says so. But despite what my definition (and many others) is of the word, many people will continue to use the word differently, and I'll just have to put up with it. In my mind, I'm no more a linguist than I am an astrophysicist, but people will "use the term lightly" and that's too bad, but it's the nature of terminology that different people understand differently. Sorry, but the same goes for the word fluency in your case jkhsu.

The vast majority of people in the world have a VERY different understanding of what fluency means, and would say someone speaks fluently even if they make mistakes, as long as the conversation is flowing very well. I will indeed have this before leaving China - maybe this month, or maybe next month - time will tell, since I'm still wrapping up some issues that I see as manageable in the short term, and wouldn't say I'm fluent right now, but I will soon enough. When I say I'm fluent then you would find most people would agree, although I'm confident from what I'v read on this thread that most people on Chinese-forums.com will disagree. This is unfortunate, but not representative of how many many people think of and understand the concept of fluency.

But once again, arguing definitions is something for another thread, because we could disagree that the other person is being too light or too unreasonable until the cows come home, and nobody's mind will ever be changed.

Summary: Benny's definition of fluency is too light, This is another tangent that I am not going to reply to in this thread further, as I'd like it to not reach 99 pages

[jkhsu]

If you thought that I was claiming to sound like this guy in 3 months, then skepticism (and in some people's situations, name calling) is perhaps understandable, but I was clear from the start that I wanted to be comfortable in conversations and not necessarily in technical discussions.

Ok, let's take away Julien's speed, performance and pronunciation abilities. What he's saying in that video is actually what I would expect a fluent speaker to say. If you heard this in English, you'd realize that it's not "techinical" at all.

Does everyone else on here believe fluent = basic conversation ability with limited vocabulary? If so, then I guess I've been fluent for a while already.

[irishpolyglot]

Once again what does "limited" mean, what does "basic" mean, what does "technical" mean (being able to deal with the situation of handling game show questions, and entertaining such a large audience is very complex in my view, and a high pressure situation quite a lot of people would be uncomfortable handling, even if the questions themselves are general knowledge) - these are definition issues, and is the same problem with the original question of what fluent means.

When I upload a video and say, OK, now I would say I'm fluent, then you'll understand what I mean (even if you'll definitely disagree), since I would describe my situation in Mike's video as being too "limited vocabulary" and hesitating too much to count. I know a lot more words than I'm letting on, but am working on internalising them so I can use them snappier in conversations and recognise them in free flowing speech better. Then I'll be much less limited, but still limited to a different extent.

Rather than "does anyone else here believe.....", I'd simply ask a native to ask a native friend of theirs (just a random person, not into language learning) if they think you speak fluently after spending a few hours with them, (while you are not in front of them so they can save face and be more honest). If they say yes, then it counts. Definitions aside, what most people understand is what counts in my book. If everyone thinks you speak fluently except for you and others with incredibly high standards, then never accepting that you are a fluent speaker (but still perhaps far from being a bilingual speaker) is taking humility too far in my book.

[icebear]

When I upload a video and say, OK, now I would say I'm fluent, then you'll understand what I mean

I think the issue is you never had to so strongly qualify your statements on fluency with your past ventures; you actually took C1/C2 level tests and apparently did reasonably well. There was no reason for people to bicker with you about the fluent claim.

[renzhe]

I'd like to get in before the thread degenerates into a flame-war

Congratulations, Benny, on your progress. You went from zero to having real conversations in Chinese in 3 months. It took hard work, and regardless of one's definitions of fluency, that deserves respect. More importantly, you motivated many people to start learning Chinese and showed them that it can be fun. Many long-time students of Mandarin take the joys of Chinese for granted after a while, and all discussions tend to focus on difficulties and negative aspects (I am sometimes guilty of this too). You have motivated many people to pick up Chinese, and I'd like to thank you for it.

Sadly, the decent progress you've made will not get the recognition it deserves because of the inflated claims and posturing at the start. You might not realise how it comes across, but I took it the same way imron did. In any case, these discussions will hinge on the definition of "fluency", and for me (and most people), this simply means that you can take care of all everyday business naturally, and with minimal extra effort required for both you and the people you converse with. It is far from perfection, it's far from Julien Gaudfroy, or even glossika, but it is still a very ambitious goal, and you are too quick to dismiss any and every disagreement as academic and linguistic perfectionism. You are hurting your own progress like this, IMHO.

If you can keep up learning at this speed, I expect that you will reach fluency (written + spoken) at C1 level or above in about three years. That's probably further off than you expect, but a good gauge for fluency is writing all the answers in this thread in Chinese without a great effort, or discussing the plot of a Chinese movie you've just watched in Chinese. And this has been more elusive for me than I expected, and you'll make your own experiences. In any case, welcome to the world of Chinese learning, it's a fascinating place to be!

[irishpolyglot]

Some stuff I disagree with renzhe, but in the interests of preventing your flame-war prediction, thanks for the kind words.

[feng]

Saying that he will get there in "3 years" is kind of an arbitrary number, makes me wonder where you get this number from. (For what its worth, I doubt it will take me 3 years to get to that point either. Time will tell (:

For example, imagine if Benny met and fell in love with and married a Taiwanese girl (:

[icebear]

For example, imagine if Benny met and fell in love with and married a Taiwanese girl (:

But if he meets a nice southern girl in his mainland trip, it may take much longer!

[imron]

For example, imagine if Benny met and fell in love with and married a Taiwanese girl (:

Spouses don't always make good language teachers.

Saying that he will get there in "3 years" is kind of an arbitrary number, makes me wonder where you get this number from.

That's for spoken and written (and therefore also reading) fluency at C1 level. It's quite a high target, and I think 2-3 years is not an unreasonable timeframe.

Time will tell.

[jkhsu]

I think 2-3 years is not an unreasonable timeframe.

Definitely doable. For example, after 2 years of college level Mandarin, you can attend one year of IUP or ICLP to achieve this level or higher. If you're studying full time in China, you can probably finish the 2 years of college level Mandarin prerequisite in less time.

[victor557]

fluent in 3 months? maybe a superficial kind of fluency. e.g. in a limited range of everyday topics, such as weather, food, hobbies. Especially if you practice on those topics for hours everyday. and most conversations with new people tend to repeat themselves.

but to be able to discuss the full range of topics fluently is really tough. you need to be able to instantly recognise (and produce) thousands upon thousands of words. by virtue of the sheer quantity of information, it's probably going to take upwards of a year even for a very talented and dedicated learner.

[amandagmu]

2-3 years definitely possible if you attend one of the cram programs: Middlebury, IUP, ICLP, etc. They're pretty much the only places that can accomplish the task -- in terms of formal programs, I think. Rigorous self-study and/or an *excellent* 1-on-1 teacher (i.e., who knows what he/she is doing and has a good method) for the same period of time could also help, but that would be tedious and way more time than most people have. Basically you need to be independently wealthy so that you can just take off of work and study Chinese all day. This is not the case if you just want to chat with people... that could happen much faster (or not, depending on an individual's linguistic ability). But even Chinese children take more years to learn how to read and write at a competent level than their counterparts in alphabetic languages. Heck, I formally studied Chinese about 3.5 years (low-level, part-time uni classes in the U.S.; two 6-week programs in the summer in China; 1 year at ICLP; 6 months 1-on-1 in Beijing 3x per week) and I consider myself only "fluent" in academic terms - I can do my research, read in the field, read the newspaper (more-or-less, except when the topic includes loads of specialized terms on a topic I'm unfamiliar with), and discuss my research with other academics. If someone asks me to read some random fiction novel and then discuss it in, say, a book club environment, I'd probably need extra time to look up "new" vocabulary (noun, expressions, slang) and decide it isn't worth the effort. (Which reminds me, I did take and pass the HSK, but I was really irritated that they chose to incorporate fairy tales into the reading section--I'm sure I did poorly on those bits. Seriously, at age 31 there is no way I'm going to waste time sitting around reading fairy tales... it really seemed like a cruel government joke. There was, of course, almost nothing about history or politics on the exam, the two subjects in which I'm most capable.)

[Erbse]

Basically you need to be independently wealthy

So true :| I wish money just grew on those trees in my backyard.

For someone who is working full time, 3 years to C1 is impossible.

[irishpolyglot]

"Impossible" is a word people throw around far too much. My keyboard spontaneously transforming into a hippo is impossible. Learning a language and progressing to a very useful level, such as C1, despite other commitments, takes hard work, compromises, restructuring of your free time, less time socialising in English and more time using the language, regular Skype chats or in person meetups etc., but is not impossible. There are far too many examples that disprove your claim, no matter how many examples there are of people who don't succeed.

I've met hundreds of non-wealthy people working a full time job in the wrong language, who have achieved the "impossible" as you describe it, and this includes me, since my current situation is a new one for me after 10 years of very different ones, such as this: http://www.fluentin3months.com/work/

[陳德聰]

I think that really this whole challenge was met with too much deflection from any sorts of legitimate questions about definitions and whatnot. I agree almost wholeheartedly with imron and renzhe, and felt that this was about expectations and what learners were led to believe was going to happen.

When the 3-month video came out and it was just a silly video, I didn't take it to mean anything really. I just thought it was a bit of a cop-out and that perhaps it was because Benny wasn't proud of his accomplishments, but we can see from the man himself he is extremely proud of his accomplishments! Just struck me as extremely odd.

I feel like it has been said many times before, this is about perceived arrogance, which is what you get when you set (self-admittedly) unrealistic goals in the frame of being attainable, especially if you run a website that profits from convincing people they can become "fluent" using your methods. I just think it would have been WAY easier to appreciate your efforts if you had been more humble about it.

additional edit:

Now that I think about it, it would have been probably a lot less frustrating to deal with all the people criticizing if you had just set out to take the HSK from the start. As for your own feelings about your level, it is impossible to really tell from the videos you posted where you're at, but I would suggest being a little bit cautious of trusting one's own ability to comprehend conversations since people tend to adjust their level of speech to fit who they are talking to, and since you clearly are not operating at an extremely high level in Mandarin yet, you would encounter a lot of this sort of tailored speech.