Benny Lewis' 3-month quest to become fluent in Mandarin

[realmayo]

He writes on his website:

I have a long road ahead of me, but I plan on sprinting that road rather than crawling backwards on my ass, which considering the fact that I’ve been assured it takes anything from five to ten years to reach a “useful” level of fluency in Chinese, I’m convinced is the way most people are tackling this issue. Sorry for the bluntness, but I’ll make fast progress because of a much more efficient learning approach than them.

So he is saying that we're all thick!

[renzhe]

I'm not at all interested in claiming Chinese is "easy". Only that it's easier than you think

I can't let this stand. You're misrepresenting what people are saying.

Chinese is a bit more difficult than most languages if you want to do basic conversation with a cooperative partner. I agree that it's not impossible, it just takes hard work and dedication. In fact, I don't argue that Chinese is hard. I just think that Chinese takes time, because there's so much to cover. All of it composed of small, easy steps -- millions of them.

But you have already decided that you are not going to do anything difficult:

- you are not going to read a book

- you are not going to translate a book

- you are not going to read Chinese outloud

- you are not going to watch a movie

- you are not going to watch a talk show

- you are not going to watch a series

- you are not going to learn to write by hand

- you are not going to learn composition -- writing essays and articles

- you are not going to go for perfect pronunciation (your goal is to be understood)

- etc.

A C1 fluent speaker can do ALL of these. And that's the easy part. Then you get to classical language, idioms, poetry, heavy accents and dialects, the really difficult stuff. You can't wet your feet and then quit before it gets difficult, and then claim that it's easier than I think. Read a book if you're ambitious.

[Olle Linge]

Can read already!

Another major milestone and important aspect of all this “impossibility” I’ve been warned about is that I can actually read and write already! To a very very limited extent of course, but it’s not as much of an unsurmountable monster as everyone makes it out to be.

I don't think anyone has suggested that being able to read "to a very very limited extent" is an insurmountable monster.

[imron]

and have found a useful workaround to get what I want on the menu when I’m confident from the photo that it’s vegetarian (something, which hopefully soon I’ll simply ask directly)

I'm not sure what the situation is like in Taiwan, but in the mainland, vegetarianism is a concept that is not well understood, and even asking directly isn't enough. See here, and here.

and then write the pinyin and tone number. So 好 is hao3, and you will see a list of characters with the same or similar pronunciation+tone, and then you select it.

Out of curiosity, what input method (IME) are you using that allows you to select tones? Most of them only show characters based on the pronunciation without a tone (and the numbers for selection are completely unrelated to the tone involved).

Another major milestone and important aspect of all this “impossibility” I’ve been warned about is that I can actually read and write already!

Benny, I know you're trying to put forward a positive can-do attitude, but I'm sorry, you can't read already, and I think what you are saying is misleading (and at the end of your 3 months, I hope you don't gloss fluent in the same sort of way). You can recognise several dozen characters, but that is very different from reading (for reference, the government classifies knowledge of less than 1,500 characters as functionally illiterate for a native).

It's like you're 200 metres in to running a marathon and you're saying to everyone, "hey this is easy, I don't know why everyone says running a marathon is hard". Sure, the first 200 metres are easy, and each step is no more difficult than the previous one. The problem is, there's still another 42 kilometers to go. The difficulty comes from the time, consistency and perseverence required to learn enough characters and words to be able to read, not because learning any one character is particularly hard. You've said on your site that you want to add Mandarin as one of your permanent languages, and if that includes wanting to be able to read things like newspapers and simpler native texts (something anyone at C1 can do), you'll find out sooner or later what the problems are.

See also this thread regarding reading fluency.

[Aquatarkus]

What an exhilarating topic. I engaged in Chinese almost two years ago and though now I remember some hundreds of hanzi and language in general doesn't seem to be so frightening as at first, I still cannot keep up a one-minute long conversation, to say nothing of any fluency. As for the reading and writing, I have completely worn out the screen of my PDA because of Pleco exercises, but I'm still afraid to open a new unfamiliar chinese book and try to read it "prima vista". So it's very comforting to know that someone is able to grasp the Chinese in three months

[Shelley]

i agree with Renzhe's post#122 wholeheartedly.

@realmayo, I am not sure he is actually calling us thick, mearly that we are not useing his method of learning (which he wants people to pay for, I believe) and being satisfied with his level of fluencey, but I might be wrong:)

I think he wants us to believe that he has some secret or trick or something like that to learning languages quickly.

Something no one has mentioned and has just occured to me, why does it matter how long it takes.

i am sure that if you are learning for pleasure it really dosn't matter and if you need to learn, then you may learn faster because circumstances may help ie: being in the country, useing it at work etc.

So can any tell me why they might think its important to learn this fast?

Excellent post #124 imron. Just a small point he did not ask for his meal in chinese, he pointed to picture and hoped it was what he thought it was. Does this really count? I don't think this is a "workaround" more like a get out.

Despite attemts to put this topic to bed, i think it will be getting up and asking for many glasses of water thoughout the long night:)

I think it has been very interesting to see the wide range of people who have put their views forward.

[David Wong]

Out of curiosity, what input method (IME) are you using that allows you to select tones?

He might be referring to way the Pleco app accepts typed pinyin (using the standard keyboard). The app allows you to narrow down the list of characters by filtering on the tone number.

Benny - I really hope you achieve the "C1" level goal that you've set for yourself. Even if you are tweaking the definition of "C1" a little. If you succeed, I will gladly pay whatever you're asking to learn your "hacks" and your shortcuts.

[imron]

Just a small point he did not ask for his meal in chinese

Yeah I realise that, I was referring more to the last sentence about him being able to ask directly in the future. Personally I think pointing and hoping is a perfectly valid way to order/learn. I remember doing exactly the same thing when I was first in China. You quickly learn which dishes you do and don't like. There was this one horrible dish we always seemed to pick (虾米油菜 for those who are interested), and that was one of the first ones we learnt properly so we could make sure to never order it!

Anyway, I know Benny also likes to think the people telling him Chinese is going to take a long time are just doing it the wrong way, but the majority of my Chinese was learnt through interacting with people rather than from a book or classroom (I chose martial arts rather than yoga), and then later on through using native materials - radio, tv, books etc. I'm probably also lazier and less motivated than he is, so I've no doubt he could do it faster than I did, but nothing I've seen yet has convinced me he'll be anywhere close to C1 in 3 months.

[OneEye]

This is really incredible. Let me summarize:

Benny: I'm aiming for C1 in 3 months! (let Benny's goal = x)

Benny's fans: good luck, you're awesome, you'll show them, etc.

(Benny's confidence +15pts)

Others: Well, C1 is actually more like 15x, but good luck.

Benny: I'm actually going to go for x – y. (let y = the hard part of reaching x)

Others: That's nowhere near C1.

Benny: HATERS! I don't want to be here if you won't support me 100%.

Others: OK, we were just fine before you came along. But we'll watch as you either figure out you're wrong or continue to lower your goal in order to claim you're right. And then call us all dense.

Benny, after reaching .05(x – y): Hey, this is easy! Really easy! You're all dense!

(Benny's swagger +20pts)

(Benny sticks fingers in ears so he can ignore the "haters")

Well, that was sooner than I expected. Like I said before, the online persona that Benny has built up is incompatible with admitting he doesn't know what he's talking about, or admitting that he was misguided in setting his goals, or humility. Maybe he feels these things will negatively impact his sales, who knows. Maybe he'll reach his goal (whether that's x – y or x – y – z). But we'll all know that his goal is nowhere near 15x. Unfortunately, the people he dupes into buying his products likely won't.

[imron]

or humility.

Chinese takes 5 years to teach humility, not 3 months

[OneEye]

Ah! No wonder, then!

Well played.

[irishpolyglot]

You can say I'm sticking my fingers in my ears, but arguing with people is really quite a waste of time at this stage. I just see these "discussions" as going on forever, especially when my words are being minced to say that I think you are all thick, or that this is some elaborate sales pitch, since I'll be open about everything I'm doing throughout the mission, as I was in this post, apart from points I'll expand on in future posts for the sake of brevity.

I'm more interested in answering real questions than continuing to bicker with all silly remarks, so going with that:

• What input method am I using?
  

I've been in Linux for years, but am back to Windows on this new computer. All I did was go to Control Panel, Change Keyboards or other input methods, Change Keyboards, add Chinese Traditional Taiwan, and then click "properties" for that keyboard, then the tab "Keyboard", which allowed me to select HanYu pinyin. So hao3 gives me 好

• So can any tell me why they might think its important to learn this fast?
  

A valid question. If you are learning Chinese from home, out of love for the language, then there is no reason to push yourself, and absorbing it with time is the way to go. However, expats in the country who learn too slowly will continue to speak English the majority of their time, and this is hardly efficient immersion, and something that genuinely annoys me after seeing it for years all over the world. I need to learn quickly if I am to appreciate my time in Taiwan in the way I want, by having a social circle in the language, and to allow me to instantly make friends through Mandarin after these 3 months are up.

Making those friends is why I'm in such a hurry. If this means I'll succeed, or if it means I'll be humbled, so be it. But I think everyone may agree that it's better that THE LANGUAGE ITSELF humbles me, rather than people in a forum. As I said, I'm interested in openly sharing my progress, but not in arguing. I do genuinely believe that many people are not learning efficiently enough, or are simply not trying hard enough, despite a huge time investment. This has nothing to do with being thick, and I'm sorry you are interpreting it that way.

• There are things that you don't know that you don't know. #3 is what I'm talking about.
  

I'm amazed people don't see the irony here when discussing ease of languages you know little or nothing about.

• you are not going to translate a book, you are not....
  

I worked as a professional translator for several years. If someone isn't paying me to do it, why on earth would I translate a book? As a learning exercise, simply reading with a dictionary is much more efficient in my view. I'm also not going to watch a series because I think TV is boring and I'll learn quicker with things more complex than silly stories I can guess the context of thanks to images. Most things on your list are things I don't do in English, you are missing the point if you think I don't want to do them because of language abilities.

Also, my goal is to be understood right now - this is not my goal for the end of 3 months. I will improve my spoken abilities to be the best I can possibly make them within 3 months, but am accepting that I will not sound like a native. This is very different to the limiting goal of "just be understood" that you suggested.

• I'm not sure what the situation is like in Taiwan for vegetarians
  

I am seeing 素食 on many restaurant signs. My teacher assures me that these restaurants are entirely vegetarian (no fish products either). Time will tell if this is the case.

[gato]

I'm also not going to watch a series because I think TV is boring and I'll learn quicker with things more complex than silly stories I can guess the context of thanks to images. Most things on your list are things I don't do in English

I think you are missing his point. He's not asking you take up TV watching as a hobby. He's asking you to watch and answer questions based on what you've watched as a test of your language ability. People are trying to suggest to you a better test than your interviewing someone with your prepared set of questions. It's irrelevant whether you enjoy it or not. It doesn't matter whether it's something you like to do in English.

[irishpolyglot]

From one of my commenters:

I think that's my favourite thing about Chinese and why I consider it the easiest spoken (that's the key part - I'm not talking about characters) language I've ever spent time learning.

The tones are so distinct from each other and everything's monosyllabic and there are no declensions or conjugations. This means that when you learn a word you know it 100% and you can hear it in any situation and it won't have warped beyond recognition. The tones cut up strings of noises into clear syllables making it easy to pick out each one.

I make no claim to saying Mandarin is the easiest language in the world but compared to anything else I've ever looked at I think it's the most logical system ever devised for spoken language.

[irishpolyglot]

It's irrelevant whether you enjoy it or not. It doesn't matter whether it's something you like to do in English.

Thank you!!! You have summarised my biggest problem with the academic approach to language learning, in the most concise way I've ever seen. Pity you are arguing for that view rather than against it, but I will actually be quoting your words in future.

[gato]

Is that what you say to get out of tests? ("I don't have to take your BS tests and your academic approach. I only take test that I enjoy, and can easily pass. What's the point of taking a test if I can't pass it?")

[imron]

I am seeing 素食 on many restaurant signs. My teacher assures me that these restaurants are entirely vegetarian (no fish products either)

The waitresses and chefs will assure you of that also -- but you may still find sprinklings of mince in your food because it "makes it taste better" (once again though, Taiwan and the mainland might be different in this regard).

I'm amazed people don't see the irony here when discussing ease of languages you know little or nothing about.

Why do you assume people know nothing about these other languages? Many of us here do.

I think that's my favourite thing about Chinese and why I consider it the easiest spoken (that's the key part - I'm not talking about characters) language I've ever spent time learning.

The problem is, if you don't learn to at least read characters, you'll never get beyond intermediate level language skills. I'd also be curious about what level of Chinese that commenter had. Spoken Chinese has a lot of really simple things in the beginning (once you get past tones), but it also has a lot of complexities as you get deeper into the language.

[irishpolyglot]

@gato An excellent way to make my view seem totally illogical with ridiculous statements like "I only take test(s) that I enjoy"

I've sat many very complicated and very formal language tests, failed one and passed the others. I know the point of language tests and what they are trying to test better than most, and I know a few of their shortcomings too.

The major problem I see in most language learning approaches is working towards these tests rather than appreciating use of the language in non-measurable ways, such as friendship.

As I said, I'm not interested in bickering, and that's what discussions are getting reduced to when my view is warped like that. My problem with the academic approach is what you wrote as the core of the entire philosophy (learn to pass the test, learn to know precisely x numbers of words etc.) and the idea of working for a test rather than for life in that language, which is pushed forward by many as "I'll be able to do that if I pass this test". For example, I'll share a video and other things publicly at the end of my mission to "test" my level for those curious, but I am not working towards that video test. Because of this the video won't be AS impressive as if I had worked specifically towards being able to make a convincing video of me interviewing someone as the focus of my project.

My mission will be a success if I have real friends and real non-superficial conversations in the language, regardless of what my "testers" feel.

Spoken Chinese has a lot of really simple things in the beginning (once you get past tones)' date=' but it also has a lot of complexities as you get deeper into the language. [/font']

Replace "Chinese" with any other language in the world and this statement is equally valid. The difficulties will be overplayed (even if irrelevant, like how hard it is to deal with ancient Chinese, and how hard it is to look words up and remember stroke order when that is not an issue for me) and the simplified parts will be downplayed.

So much resistance to a bit of optimism! So nobody is going to agree with what my commenter said? There's NOTHING easy about Chinese? Seems like quite an unproductive attitude if you ask me. I hope arguments are only coming this way because of my apparent arrogance. All these arguments and dismissals of very important good news are not helpful to new learners. There's "waking them up to the real world" and then there's simply being far too selective in sharing only the hardest parts of a language with people.

But yes, I agree with you that if I can't read then I won't get beyond intermediate, although I think I was clear that my focus is to read at a useful level and speak beyond an intermediate level, which is different than an academic clumping of the whole language together, and saying not reading well may invalidate speaking well.

[hbuchtel]

• you are not going to translate a book, you are not....
  

I worked as a professional translator for several years. If someone isn't paying me to do it, why on earth would I translate a book? As a learning exercise, simply reading with a dictionary is much more efficient in my view.

I just want to comment on this one -

I've also worked as a professional translator for several years, and find that translating a document requires a much more deeper level of understanding than simply reading through it.

When reading it is easy to skim through the text and get the gist of what one is reading - and be satisfied with that. This is not acceptable when translating, as it will be impossible to express (in the target language) those sections that did not give up their meaning easily during the first read-through. For this reason, translating can be an excellent tool for language study, whether one is getting paid or not.

[imron]

There's NOTHING easy about Chinese?

Now who's twisting what people are saying...

Spoken Chinese has a lot of really simple things in the beginning

People aren't bringing up the simple things, because they're not going to be issues that you'll run in to.