Another blogger setting out to learn Chinese in 3 months

[hedwards]

@kikosun, that's a solid point, but in practice if you make it through those first 3 months and manage well enough, the study time after that tends to be a lot easier and less stressful. You can largely focus on engaging in activities that you like rather than specifically studying.

 

As far as Benny goes, I think he's hit the point where it's not possible to properly retain any more languages, I think he's pushing 10, if not beyond that by now. For most folks the maximum number of languages that you can really get is between 3 and 10. After that, there's a tendency for people to get less and less deep with the language as there's less and less time to learn and practice with.

 

That's just an estimate I've seen, but I'd be surprised if anybody who speaks 20 languages has real mastery over most of them.

[renzhe]

That's why 8 is my life goal. It's a bit excessive still, but at least it should be possible to achieve and maintain a high level in all of them if you do everything just right.

But I'm looking at 5 years minimum for each, not months.

[Kelby]

@hedwards, I think I heard somewhere that Benny's dumped Chinese for lack of interest. I have a buddy who did a podcast interview with him promoting his new book and in that Benny mentioned he's dropping Mandarin and Arabic because he doesn't see himself going back to those parts of the world.

Seems like fair reasoning.

[hedwards]

@Kelby, unfortunately, you don't always know if you're going to want to have a language forever until you spend quite a bit of time studying.

 

@renzhe, 5 years is way too long a period of time to spend on it. If you tell yourself that it's at least 5 years, it's going to take you a lot longer than if you tell yourself you're going to work on it for a shorter period of time.

[imron]

@hedwards, by my count renzhe is at least on 5 or 6 languages at the moment (with several at native or near native level) so he probably has a good handle on what to expect.

 

@renzhe, Croatian, English, German, Mandarin, Portuguese and Spanish, what are the other 2?

[hedwards]

@imron, that's a common mistake that holds people back. Just because it took X amount of time to do something the last time does not mean that this is how much time it takes or should take. It just means that this is how long it took the last time. And language learning materials and pedagogy have greatly improved over the last 40 years and will probably improve by at least that much in the next 40.

If I seem to be a tad dismissive it's because after spending all the time in college studying language acquisition, and there's so many myths out there about language learning. I've grown tired of all the sabotage that goes on based upon anecdotal "evidence." There's only so many limits you can see being discarded for lack of support when newer information comes in and forces people to abandon it before you start to get skeptical about the validity of people's anecdotes.

A child can go from literally no knowledge of any language to native in about 10 years and build up a vocabulary of a college student in 24. Doing that requires averaging about 3-4 words a day. Adults, starting with some linguistic concepts and conscious strategies can make the same level of progress in a much smaller period of time.

Now that doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't anything to be gained by going longer than necessary, just that planning on it taking so long is an invitation for inefficiencies and activity to over take progress. Most people won't even notice.

So, take that for what you will, but 5 years is too long to plan on spending. Even a child can learn their first language starting from scratch doesn't take that much longer to learn it. And adult that has knowledge of the concept of language and the ability to look up definitions and grammar should be able to move substantially more efficiently. That period that children spend learning includes reverse engineering the entire language without knowing what is and isn't possible.

And BTW, don't think I didn't notice the ad hominem embedded in your response.

[Lanchong]

@hedwards: By your *own* reckoning, it should take 5 years to learn a language. You mentioned earlier about learning 10 words a day. To read a wide range of general interest material aimed at educated readers - a reasonable "fluency" - it's probably fair to say it takes 15000-20000 words. 10 words a day for 5 years would give you roughly 18000. So I don't know why you're unhappy with the 5 year estimate.

[imron]

And BTW, don't think I didn't notice the ad hominem embedded in your response.

I think you might be reading too much in to my words.  I don't see any ad hominem there, nor is there one intended.

 

I was simply trying to point out that as a non-native English speaker, renzhe's English is basically indistinguishable from a native.  From what I know, his German is at the same (or better) level, and it wouldn't surprise me if his Portuguese is fast catching up.

 

That's the level I believe he's aiming for with his languages, and I think 5 years each is not unreasonable for that, it also requires large and long-term exposure to content and also the culture and people.

[anonymoose]

The argument over how long it takes to learn a language is rather meaningless. Learning language is, after all, a lifelong pursuit - even for our own mother tongues.

 

I can only assume that those who say it takes one year to learn a language are those that are satisfied with the proficiency they can attain within one year, and those that say it takes five years are those who aren't satisfied until they attain the proficiency that takes five years.

 

I can only say that, personally, I haven't yet reached a level in Chinese yet at which I could say I've completed learning the language, and that's after 10+ years.

[Silent]

 

That's the level I believe he's aiming for with his languages, and I think 5 years each is not unreasonable for that, it also requires large and long-term exposure to content and also the culture and people.

Learning a language in 5 years is not unreasonable though it depends a lot on the language and previous knowledge, what imho is at least so relevant is the time needed to maintain the language. I've experienced a clear degradation of my mother tongue in less then a year of very little use. I experience a continuous degradation of my English (from imho near native) after almost a year of submersion despite using it on a regular basis (by mostly speaking with non-natives and reading/listening natives). Maybe other people are less affected by this language loss then me, but, even if I learn languages to a high level, I see no chance to maintain more then a couple at a high level.

 

I know many people here think differently, but if I consider utility gained with level of proficiency and the time investment needed I wonder whether high proficiency should be the goal. Of course you need to be proficient in a least one or two large languages to gain access to specialist knowledge or special interest knowledge as this info is usually not available in smaller languages and languages not related to the special interest. After that it may be much more useful to have a survival level in many languages instead of proficiency in one or two languages. But of course the benefits differ hugely from person to person.

[Shelley]

Learning multiple languages is for some a way of life, I believe some people's brains are wired for languages. Some people have an aptitude for maths, some for life sciences and so on.

 

Some find it easy, some like me, have to work hard at it, it is not possible to say exactly how long any one person will take to learn a language to a level they want to achieve.

 

I think this subject is to difficult to put in boxes and tuck away neatly on shelves. I think the answer to how long does it take has as many answers as people learning,

 

I come from a family of language learners, my mother is bilingual in English /German and my grandfather was a professor of languages and taught at many universities from the 1930's to the 1960's.

 

He could speak, read and write 7 languages. He could read and write 7 more.

 

He always made this distinction that he could not speak 7 of the 14 languages he knew.

 

He translated Shakespeare in to Arabic and other literary works in to Turkish and Arabic.

 

He spent his whole adult life immersed in language learning. IMHO he was a true polyglot.

 

With all this in my genes you would think it would be easy but it seems that I have inherited the love of languages not necessarily the skill for learning them quickly.

 

I feel that languages are in my blood. I will continue to love and learn Chinese. The level I reach is important but not the only reason I do it.

 

We may just have to accept that some 3 month learners ( not all ) may only be in it for other reasons. Some may start and then find it too much, some may genuinely think that what they learn in 3 months is enough for their purposes.

 

People are all different, how and what they learn is different.

 

I don't think there is so much a right or wrong in this situation just the myriad of differences that makes up the people of the world.

 

As with all the 3 month bloggers I have only ever disputed fluency claims, not the fact that they are learning.

 

Long live language learning and language students

[bluetortilla]

 

I come from a family of language learners, my mother is bilingual in English /German and my grandfather was a professor of languages and taught at many universities from the 1930's to the 1960's.

 

He could speak, read and write 7 languages. He could read and write 7 more.

 

He always made this distinction that he could not speak 7 of the 14 languages he knew.

 

He translated Shakespeare in to Arabic and other literary works in to Turkish and Arabic.

 

He spent his whole adult life immersed in language learning. IMHO he was a true polyglot.

 

With all this in my genes you would think it would be easy but it seems that I have inherited the love of languages not necessarily the skill for learning them quickly.

 

I feel that languages are in my blood. I will continue to love and learn Chinese. The level I reach is important but not the only reason I do it.

 

Wow, amazing stuff! Thanks!

 

All I can say is do what you love. That might sound cliched, but it is true after all. And don't compromise on doing what you love. Your ability in comparison to other people never matters if what you are doing is what you love.

[renzhe]

@hedwards:

@renzhe, 5 years is way too long a period of time to spend on it. If you tell yourself that it's at least 5 years, it's going to take you a lot longer than if you tell yourself you're going to work on it for a shorter period of time.

It depends on your goal. My goal with foreign language learning is "well educated native level" , so 5 years is a rather tight schedule, IMHO.

I see C2 as an absolute minimum before saying I "know" a language.

A child can go from literally no knowledge of any language to native in about 10 years and build up a vocabulary of a college student in 24.

I'm aiming for the level of a good university graduate, so I don't see why 5 years is too long, if it takes a native 24.

Now that doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't anything to be gained by going longer than necessary, just that planning on it taking so long is an invitation for inefficiencies and activity to over take progress. Most people won't even notice.

I appreciate the ambitious angle, but you might be addressing this to the wrong person Instead of being ambitious with timeframes, I prefer being ambitious with language proficiency. You can achieve superficial fluency on selected topics in less than a year, but a really high level always takes time.

I understand that you're annoyed by poor teaching methods and people freewheeling for years without progress. On the other hand, I'm sometimes annoyed by people who claim fluency and native level in languages X, Y and Z, and when you actually test them, they suck.

@imron:

@renzhe, Croatian, English, German, Mandarin, Portuguese and Spanish, what are the other 2?

I speak Croatian, English and German fluently. I am working on Mandarin, Portuguese and Spanish, which are at different stages of B2/C1, but all need quite a bit of work.

I'll probably learn French at some point, because it is so incredibly useful and so similar to Portuguese and Spanish. As for the last one, I'll have to see. Arabic, Japanese and Hindi are all very interesting, potentially also Russian.

[roddy]

Scott's done a guest post on Sinosplice if anyone wants to take a look . 

 

After a three-month stay in China, I’m hardly an expert on learning Chinese. However I did go from a minimal amount of prior self-study (105 hours, exactly), to passing the HSK 4 and being able to hold fairly complex conversations in Chinese after my brief stay.

[Kelby]

Thought I'd point out that Scott guested again on Hacking Chinese.

 

Although it decidedly wasn't in 3 months, he still passed the HSK 4 with a 74%. Also, I'm putting my foot in my mouth after watching him converse with Olle Linge and John Padsen in the videos in the attached article.

 

Their documentary is also worth a watch...

[hedwards]

I'd kind of lost interest in the topic because of a lot of the silliness going on.

@renzhe, I think you don't understand what C2 means if you're using that as your standard for whether or not a person knows a language. The line was set there because that represents the point where there's unlikely to be any meaningful progress beyond that point. There's always going to be room for improvement, but C2 represents the point where there's not typically much necessity in doing so.

 

As far as the word counts people have asserted, that's very much begging the question. Word count isn't fluency, you need words in order to be fluent, but if the words you know don't apply to the situation, then there's no way you'll be fluent in the situation. I'm a native English speaker but if somebody wanted me to comment on knitting, there's no way I could do so fluently as I lack the vocabulary and conceptual knowledge to do so. But, I could still talk about it, I'd just have to use the wrong words for every aspect of it.

 

Yes a native speaker probably has a vocabulary of over 20k words by the time they hit adulthood, but if you actually look at what the vocabulary consists of, there's a ton of words that you don't really need. As somebody that knows a bit about painting, it's useful to know zinc-white, titanium-white, cerulean and azure, but for most people those are two kinds of white and two kinds of blue. Likewise, I see no particular reason why somebody that isn't involved with construction or architecture would need to know about the difference between a Roman column and a Greek column. In all those cases you'd be doing fine to just refer to the generic and ask for the specific if you really need to know it you can always look it up.

 

To suggest that a person isn't a fluent user of the language and that they don't know the language just because they haven't hit arbitrary targets is elitist. I wouldn't personally take a dump on somebody's efforts just because they haven't managed to met arbitrary targets.

 

As far as the time to learn a language, I stand by my assertion that 5 years is way too long to spend on it before considering yourself to know the language. Now, how long it should take to get to C2, that's another matter, it's not the amount of time that dictates when you get there, you get there when you get there.

[renzhe]

I think that I come across as too aggressive too often, so I'll try to rephrase my post.

hedwards, you have seriously misunderstood something, and are arguing a strawman.

I have never told other people how good their second language should be, or what level they should aspire to achieve. I strongly believe that this is something everybody gets to choose for themselves, and have always advocated this. I would like to achieve a high level in all languages I learn, because it is a hobby I like very much. I do not look down on people who set themselves different targets; we all have different motives for learning after all.

I am perfectly content to let you learn a language to whatever level you desire, in whatever time you deem necessary. I only ask that you let me do the same.

[hedwards]

It's not so much a strawman as a response to what is apparently vague language. If you reread the post, you did say what I claimed you said, so calling it a strawman isn't accurate. I'm more than happy to accept that there was some sort of misunderstanding there, though.

[renzhe]

If there was some misunderstanding about the meaning of the pronoun "I" in the sentence "I see C2 as an absolute minimum before saying I know a language", then I am happy to clarify that I meant "I" to mean the exact opposite of "other people".

[realmayo]

#216-219 = "what do you mean by fluent?"