Another blogger setting out to learn Chinese in 3 months

[Gharial]

Aargh, not Chomsky! (It's the applied linguistics version of Godwin's Law LOL). Grammar may be universal in a very abstract, deep sense, but the range of language-particular constructions is large, and it'll probably be a long time or never before there's much if anything of much practical, especially foreign-language, use emanating from the UG camp. As for the main burden being on the learner, that's certainly true in many TEFL classes!

[tysond]

Can I ask why you didn't buy one of his books?

 

 

Have been limiting the amount of English books I read, so I am trying not to purchase anything, or get the Chinese version instead (but not yet able to read well enough, so have quite a few Chinese books in the queue).  

Nearly signed up for the subscription (no upfront, $14 a month, only open once a year) last year but my schedule was too busy and I thought I wouldn't have time to get value from it.

Also, I am currently enrolled in AJATT's SilverSpoon/Neutrino service and I'm having enough trouble keeping up with that.

My overall thought was - wish someone had bought a copy of this for me when I was a student!

[bluetortilla]

 

You object to the idea of paying for publications about learning methods, yet textbooks are based on certain learning methods (e.g. PPP, the old TEFL chestnut). Aren't 'learning methods' for languages just another term for applied linguistics? 

 

And why is a book published through the 'proper channels' better than self publishing? It sounds very reminiscent of the argument that only true journalists can deliver news, and that bloggers and twitter users should be ignored. Many many textbooks books are written by those who have the right connections to academia, not on a wider objective merit system.

 

And.. what if the 'whizz kid' gets something right? Surely you know examples of popular methodologies that have since gone out of favour. Were you sceptical of SRS when you first heard it?

 

And what's about the comment about 'scoring lots of dates'? Accelerated learning = hedonistic kid who feels it's appropriate to pepper his non-fiction with irrelevant anecdotes?

 

Have you seen the 'publications' he has to offer? I've made it pretty clear how I feel about this. If you want to waste your money on scams like these, go ahead.

 

I have stated no objections to publications about language learning. I've been civil to you sir, please don't put words in my mouth. I said there are no such publications out there that I know of. My objection was to his publications, specifically. And I have said several times that textbooks were based upon applied methodology. Please read my words more carefully if you are going to say I deny things that I don't.

 

Well, proper channels are the only ones I know for textbooks. I've never used, to my knowledge (there may have been one or two) a self-published ESL text and certainly not a Chinese or Japanese text. But in theory a self-published text could be great. Do you know one? There are many awful texts that have gone through proper channels as well (by proper channels I mean a publisher agrees to publish a book through their own expense and the writer(s) receive royalties).

 

Ah, but is he a whizz kid? Or something else perhaps? I've seen nothing ground breaking. If he does get something right I'd wish he'd disseminate in a way that it gets to more people in an effective manner. Space Repetition Software- you mean like Rosetta Stone? If yes, I think it's good. I like StickyStudy; similar. How about TPR? Boy, I hope that one's out of favor other Hokey Pokey or something. I'm not skeptical in a negative sense of anything. I get excited about new insights. Nearly all methods I've come across have strong points and weak points. They're good for certain kinds of learning but weak in others. Probably my old standby is grammar-translation. It's tedious, but it seems to work best for grammar.

 

As for the 'scoring dates' comment- I qualified that that was not what Scott said implied. Why quote me out of context? It's just a joke. His sales pitch is that if I learn faster I'll have time for other things. I was wondering what the other things might be- dating perhaps? My point is that I learn for the sake of learning. It's not like it's a chore to be gotten out of the way. I'm not judging the person- I'm judging the lack of integrity.

[bluetortilla]

 

 

Aargh, not Chomsky!

Ah, what's not to love?

 

If you hate his linguistics there's always his politics...  : D

[bluetortilla]

 

 

Nearly signed up for the subscription (no upfront, $14 a month, only open once a year) last year but my schedule was too busy and I thought I wouldn't have time to get value from it.

 

Well, it sounds like you're really impressed with the Scott's work and I apologize if I offended you in any way. 

 

We're not only different pages, we're on different planets it seems...best of luck!

[Gharial]

I haven't read his politics, his linguistics (and the way he's conducted that) was enough to put me off. Some of his founding arguments seem to have been dented if not debunked by more recent, empircially-minded researchers.

[realmayo]

Someone mentioned the life-coach thing earlier and I guess that makes sense. Encouragement and a structure and some commonly-used hints and tricks (at least that's what I assume life coaches are). If people find that helpful, and are happy to pay for it, then perhaps we shouldn't be too critical. It might be the encouragement and helping hand that someone needs to really make them kick on and work hard & efficiently.

 

If what's being sold doesn't appear to be worth spending money on, it's fair to say so. But people buy all kinds of tat they don't need. Most of it Chinese!

[Baron]

@bluetortilla

 

Why is it a scam? Because you don't like it. If you dislike a book, or there is an objectively crap book produced by a mainstream publisher, is that scam too? 

 

SRS isn't Rosetta Stone it's a memorisation technique (handy link). Rosetta Stone is a good example of something mainstream and legitimate which is in my opinion absolutely awful. I've probably learned more from a few of Scott's videos than I got from the hideous technique.

 

Just re: your comments about how Scott and other speed learners should be disseminating their techniques, you can usually read it in their blogs and see on their youtube videos and find the ones which work for you.

 

There's no magic bullet for mastering a language in 3 months but I don't think anyone, apart from Benny, ever claimed there was.

 

And I didn't intend to put words in your mouth, it was difficult to make out your point. I do apologise.

[gato]

There is nothing wrong with selling (buying) books, including books on studying skills. I have bought hundreds of books in the past few years. But there are a number of things wrong with his marketing.

There are in fact many books on study skills available, most of them available for between US$10 to 20.

See the selection on Amazon here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=kina_tsf_?i=digital-text&k=Study+skills&x=-275&y=-121

So the most obvious problem with Scott's Study Less Learn More book is that it's too expensive. And the US$14 per month newsletter, I don't see value of that for study skills.

Maybe because he's over-charging for what he has to offer, he's resorted to over-selling, by using stunts like "12-month MIT challenge" and "3-month Chinese challenge". MIT students who looked at his MIT challenge found it misleading, for example, that he was not doing any projects or problem sets required for the courses (that's where most of the learning really comes from) and he considered a "D" grade passing. It was more marketing than reality.

[bluetortilla]

@Baron

 

Congratulations on HSK6!

 

I agree that Rosetta Stone, Berlitz, et al, are not of good value. They're definitely way overpriced. I've never tried them. The point I was trying to make (I think in that post) is that they use methodology that anyone has easy access to. As far as I know, StickyStudy uses basically the same 'spaced repetition' as Rosetta Stone (I can't glean that R.S. is not SRS based but whatever) at a price even we poor folks can handle. I don't think R.S. would be 'awful'- just prohibitively priced. I imagine it to be 'fancy flashcards' based on an SRS algorithm. Not comprehensive in other words, but a way to drill. I would find it curious that R.S. would be 'awful' as in my experience nearly all methods have their strong points and weak points. Good students mix and match their methods- you could never learn anything well, much less language, by relying on just one.

 

I never said that Scott's books were 'crap' as I have not read them. I DID read the free 'book' and offered a critique which you can find in this thread. I'm sure I said or implied that his marketing is misleading. I think Scott is charging a lot of money and promising the moon. I seriously doubt that his books live up to his claims. But since I'll never buy them, I guess I'll never know.

 

I suppose a poorly conceived and poorly written book is what it is no matter how it's published (the only one I own right now is the EFL text my school gave me to teach with!). I guess I'm just lucky, but I buy books very carefully and I'm rarely disappointed. The thing is, most publishers will try to avoid low quality books simply because they won't sell.  I submit that 40 USD is a LOT of money in this world. I'm 50, but I'm a grad student too, work on public university PRC wages, and I have a daughter who's going to graduate from high school next year. I love my lifestyle- would not change a thing, but even 17 USD is a lot of money to me. For $40-$100 I would expect a handsome hard bound reference book from a reputable source with good reviews. Usually I pay around between 30-60 RMB for my texts. Finally, I believe good publishers are in fact concerned with their reputation and produce books consistent with their philosophy. Publishing is a business of course so let the buyer beware (a phrase used more than once in this thread).

 

Again, anyone can see for himself/herself re Scott's marketing style:

 

http://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/get-more/

 

You mentioned other speed learning bloggers. Would you care to share some names with us so we can check those out too (ones that you like perhaps)? After all, I believe this thread is about big claims regarding learning, quality, and the marketing behind that, not about Scott in particular. 

[imron]

@bluetortilla, although probably not your intention, quite a few of your posts come across very much as 'he does things differently from me, therefore I don't like it'.

 

I don't see any problem with the way or method that he has gone about creating and selling his work.  Sure, it's not published through a traditional publisher, but so what, the Internet (or more specifically the world wide web) has changed everything in regards to this.  Like you, I can still remember a time when the world wide web didn't exist and when the Internet was nowhere near as prevalent as it is today, but there are plenty of people who can't, and the fact is, times are changing and new business models are being created and old ones are being discarded.

 

His business will live and die by whether what he is selling is of any value.

 

*You* might not think that information he provides is valuable, but also bear in mind you have the benefit of age (and presumably therefore wisdom) that perhaps his target audience are still too young to have acquired through experience.  If his target audience can read that information he provides in book form instead of having to wait until they've got more experience in life, then what is wrong with that.  You might think that what you have to offer is not of enough value to sell, but that is why Scott makes a living doing this and you do not - obviously there are some people who do find it valuable otherwise he wouldn't have such a following. You might not see the value in learning how not to procrastinate or whatever, but for people who have grown up with the web, and with having a constant source of distraction always available, it's a different story all together (incidentally, it's also a problem for plenty of people who did grow up without it).

 

You might also think what he sells is too expensive and he's ripping people off, but also keep in mind that cost is only one part of the value equation.  The other part is how much benefit something brings.  Whether something is of value comes down to how much benefit the person buying it gets.  For example, many people say that Pleco is expensive (and it is relative to other Apps in the app store), and yet the value it creates for those who buy it is well worth the cost.

 

Maybe you think he's promising the world and can't deliver, but he also has a money back guarantee on his products - even if you didn't trust him to honour that, his payments appear to be processed through Paypal so simply instigating a refund through them and pointing out his guarantee would be enough to get it back - Paypal are pretty pro-consumer in this regard.

There's also more than enough content on his site for people to get an idea of what his writing style and whether he's writing anything that anyone thinks is worth paying for - far more so than what you'd see on a typical scam ebook site.

 

You might say he's offering nothing that can't be found elsewhere on the web or in other books, and that's probably true, but he provides it all in a single location without needing to search it out.  I'll be the first to admit that Chinese-forums has a whole bunch of useful and informative posts on how to learn (especially Chinese), however that content is also scattered here and there across multiple threads and if you don't know it's there it can be quite easy to miss - even I have trouble sometimes finding old posts I've written.  There's certainly some value in providing a whole bunch of related info in one place - especially as some people might not even know what it is they should be looking for in the first place.  If you're cash-poor but time-rich maybe his products aren't going to be so suitable, but if you're cash-rich but time-poor, having someone provide everything in a nice easy to consume package is often more attractive than schlepping around the web looking for it all yourself.

 

 

 

Again, anyone can see for himself/herself re Scott's marketing style:

I clicked through to the link to his site that you posted and saw nothing really wrong or offensive with his marketing style.  He just has a description of each of the things he sells, links to extracts and more.  Nothing wrong with that style of marketing if you ask me.

 

Now I'm not going to buy any of his products, but here is what happened when I read that page - after reading it I noticed a link at the bottom about an article he wrote regarding speed reading - which also happens to be an area that I'm very interested in.  So I went and had a read of that article.  It's nothing people haven't written about before, (he admits as much and even links to a book on Amazon where he found the main information for that post that he found helpful), and it's nothing that I haven't read before either.

 

And yet the article struck a chord with me because I also read at about 400-450 wpm and have been meaning to get back in to speed reading and push past that limit for quite some time now, and so I bought that book he linked to on Amazon.

 

Scott will make some money from that affiliate purchase, but it's not the distasteful kind of thing you mentioned earlier about people paying for reviews/links but rather a genuine win-win-win-win situation - I'll get a book that interests me that I might not otherwise have gotten around to reading and hopefully a nice boost in reading speed, Amazon gets whatever margins it makes on sales, the original author of the book will get paid his royalty, and Scott will get paid an affiliate commission from Amazon for providing them with the sale.

That's not the traditional way of doing things, but it's creating value for all stakeholders, so what's the harm?

[Baron]

@Bluetortilla

 

Wandering slightly off topic here, but regarding Rosetta Stone, they're actually pretty cheap in the grand scale of things. For something like £12 a month you get a bunch of online lessons and games, and you can schedule unlimited skype lessons with their teachers (there are limitations on these based live lessons relating to progression and content but for brevity I'll skip it). It's just the 'teaching' methodology is just awful. There are people who like it, but it's much easier to find people who dislike it. I understand that there was a lot of criticism towards them using the same lesson style on Livemocha after taking it over. If you wish to get a taste of the methodology, you can try it on Livemocha without having to pay. I got a free subscription and it still wasn't worth the investment.

 

Actually this does have some bearing on the whole 'ebooks' thing, it's about how being mainstream and nicely presented doesn't necessarily equate to good value. That said, Imron has pretty much summarised my views on this matter, and I'm not here for bluetortilla-bashing so I'll leave it.

 

You asked about other bloggers who write about speed learning, the obvious ones are the 'fluent in three months guy' (who I appreciate but don't particularly enjoy reading), and Tim Feriss. Not so much about speed learning, but if you enjoyed dissecting Scott's blog, you may also be interested in looking up Ramit Sethi's blog. You'll loathe him.

[Shelley]

Well I think Scott must be rubbing his hands with glee as this topic tops 150 posts.

 

Footfall at his website is probably up with people looking and then posting their opinions here.

 

After all any publicity is good publicity

[Baron]

I doubt it, it's probably been a very discouraging start for him to receive such hostility and derision from a prominent Chinese learner community. All indications are that he's actually a nice guy.

[Shelley]

I don't think its been that bad, he has his supporters as well as those who don't.

 

I also don't think anyone has directed the negative stuff at him personally, it has be a well behaved and informed discussion about learning methods.

 

I might have missed it but I don't remember any hostility , strong opinions yes, and some very direct ways people had of expressing themselves.

 

I think all in all it all been a very fair fight, nice and clean, nothing below the belt

[bluetortilla]

@ imron

 

Well, good luck with your speed reading! I myself have found this topic (speed learning) timely as I've been working as hard as I can on the HSK. I need to pass HSK 5 before the September deadline, or else enter school as a Chinese language student. Within that year of entering I've been told I need to pass HSK 6. I don't know if they'll hold me to that or not but either way I'm sure I'll be busy. I haven't found a magic bullet yet, but I'll report one if I do. If it's anything like the JLPT (and it's exactly like that), then it's a marathon and you have to approach it that way. On comment I can make is that I have to sacrifice thoroughness in order to retain the cumulative knowledge needed for 70% goal (60% pass). If I had two more years I could learn with much better retention and quicker responses. That's OK though. Chinese isn't going to go away. 

 

I appreciate your taking time to respond and of course what you say is quite reasonable and objective. To most of it I concur. It is true that I have a bias against the type of marketing I see Scott doing (and apparently I'm not alone) but I never meant anything against Scott as a person and I am no judge of his works, except the piece that I read (which I liked). You're right that I may not like his tactics or believe his hype, but on the other hand he does have every right to sell his material in the way that he is, and I definitely support that right 100%. And I definitely see no harm or deception off of generating revenue through links, especially links to all the Amazons, my favorite online shopping. I see that as win-win too and I've had jobs writing copy for this very sort of thing. I also wish him great success in tackling Chinese. I do think learning four languages in one year is an ambitious and interesting challenge that contains more possibility than meets the eye.

 

 You're quite right in your perceptions of how I might see things, given my age and all the rest. I would not consider myself wise in the least, but I do prefer to get things done on my own. I admire independence in others as well. And I'm happy to share whatever knowledge or resources I have with anyone here. I was very happy to find this forum, and I appreciate all the help, information, and advice everyone has given me so far.

 

With that, I'll get back to doing what I came here to do- study Chinese. : D

[bluetortilla]

@ Baron

 

 

 

I understand that there was a lot of criticism towards them using the same lesson style on Livemocha after taking it over. If you wish to get a taste of the methodology, you can try it on Livemocha without having to pay. I got a free subscription and it still wasn't worth the investment.

 

Thanks! I'll check it out. I thought all they did was the extremely expensive software package.

 

 

 

I'm not here for bluetortilla-bashing so I'll leave it.

 

Well, that's a good sign. I'm very happy to leave it be too. I'm actually a nice guy in real life. : D

I usually try to avoid criticism here and elsewhere.

 

 

 

but if you enjoyed dissecting Scott's blog, you may also be interested in looking up Ramit Sethi's blog. You'll loathe him.

 

LOL No, I think I'll pass and take your word for it. Maybe it's like Imron said- I'm just too old for this kind of thing. I sure know I can't play basketball with my college students anymore either.

 

For the record, I never imagined that Scott wasn't a nice guy, I just had issues with his marketing. I'll leave that at that too. I liked his ideas about learning, and I do think what he's doing with 'Chinese in three months' is a very cool challenge. I hope he does well- that would be encouraging to me too. Perhaps I'm just too arrogant to see why anyone would want to pay money to learn how to learn faster when they could just figure out how to do that by themselves. I guess there are a lot of situations that I'm not aware of. However, I do remember buying notes for college lectures. That saved me from having to actually attend and I could focus on courses I liked. Maybe that's similar? Yes, looking back, in college there were definitely classes where I was just in it for the grade.

 

Although I don't have any Chinese texts or ebooks that aren't mainstream published (unless you count Making Out in Chinese as an odd one out), I do have lots of apps and internet resources I use for different things (I've linked them all in the resources section of the forum). One of my favorites for characters is StickyStudy, which I've mentioned here. For a free pronunciation and tone chart, you can't beat 

 

http://learnchineseabc.com/chinese-pinyin-system.htm

 

I'm always on the lookout for great stuff like this, especially reference materials. I'm also pondering on the ~$30 Chinese/Chinese dictionary for Pleco. I am definitely open to quality materials that meet my needs, regardless of whether they are independent or not. As far as Chinese language textbooks are concerned though, I haven't run into much outside of Beijing Cultural Institute et al (the Chinese Grammar Wiki though is a great independent work in progress). As my focus is on the HSK for the foreseeable future, I'm in that cubicle. I would love to get a hold of digital practice tests. Haven't seen any though.

 

It's all about the quality. I think there has to be a consensus on that.

[imron]

I haven't found a magic bullet yet, but I'll report one if I do.

I feel quite confident in saying that there's no magic bullet for Chinese.  It just takes consistent effort over a prolonged period of time.  Yes there are things that can make things slightly easier but learning Chinese is just a slow grind. 

 

 

 

Maybe it's like Imron said- I'm just too old for this kind of thing

I didn't say you were too old I just said keep in mind that others are still quite young and the world isn't what it used to be.  I'm also a firm believer that attitude is more important that age.

 

 

 

I'm also pondering on the ~$30 Chinese/Chinese dictionary for Pleco.

The Chinese/Chinese Xiandai Hanyu Guifan Cidian for Pleco is US $19.95, and I highly recommend it.  It's a fantastic dictionary for learners, containing plenty of example sentences and also notes on subtle differences between similar words.  This is the main dictionary I use with Pleco.

 

 

 

I do think what he's doing with 'Chinese in three months' is a very cool challenge

What I would like to see is not 'Chinese in 3 months', but 'Chinese for 3 months'.  No one is ever going to learn Chinese in 3 months, at least not to the level that I consider as 'learnt' - though I'd be happy to be proven wrong.  I'd much prefer to see a well documented attempt show how much progress a determined learner can make in 3 months with the premise being that 3 months is just the beginning of the road.  I'd also like to see follow-ups regarding burnout and whether or not an intense 3 months of learning resulted in long periods of non-study once the pressure was off, and whether a less intense regime would get you just as far (if not further) when taking in to account time lost to burnout.  Like I said previously, for serious learners of Chinese, the important metric is how much you still know after a few years.

[imron]

but I don't remember any hostility

That's because it wasn't directed at you

 

I doubt it, it's probably been a very discouraging start for him to receive such hostility and derision from a prominent Chinese learner community.

I'm also a little disappointed at how the Chinese learning community can be quite hostile at times to new learners.  In general, I think our goal should be to try and welcome more people in to the world of learning Chinese - even those whose initial impressions and assumptions about the language and how fast they can learn it might not be so accurate.

[imron]

Also, I've just had a more detailed look through his site, and that $14 newsletter isn't a newsletter.  It's a course he's put together that gets sent out in parts once a month.  This is pretty common for people offering content over the web when you also have an X-day money back guarantee - if you give everything at once there are certain people who'll buy it, download all the content, and then immediately ask for a refund.  If you stagger the content over time, then those who do find it interesting but don't want to pay for it don't have an easy way to get all your content for free because in order to get all the content they have to wait longer than X days (which in this particular case is 60 days).