Help with Translating Philosophy Verses Needed

[insight]

It doesn't sound bad to me. I think this one sounds better than zen cues and zen wits It doesn't look bad.... I think this may be okay ......

I wonder what Muyongshi thinks about it....

[gato]

打禪機

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koan

I think 禪機 is called "koan" in English, a transliteration from Japanese 公案.

[insight]

Hi, Gato!!

Koan may refer to the whole story of 禪機. 禪機 is a noun for the aspects that are inaccessible to rational understanding, yet that may be accessible to intuition. And 打禪機 is the action. The story I mentioned before (the Old monk pulled the young monk's ear). The whole story is a Koan, the Old monk's behavior (pulling the young disciple's ear) is to 打禪機, while the Koan conveys 禪機. Do you know what I mean? ??

It is one of the toughest that I am coming with!!!

Thanks for mention Koan so that more people will get a clearer idea!!

[muyongshi]

I wonder what Muyongshi thinks about it....

I'm touched...

My thing about translation is finding one that is English in nature. A full equivalent. I know that is a high standard and is not always possible but....

I personally don't like the sound of the asianized English because if I don't know it it doesn't help me understand it. Hence why I think the equivalent is important...but alas perhaps there is no way in this situation.

[studentyoung]

And 打禪機 is the action. The story I mentioned before (the Old monk pulled the young monk's ear). The whole story is a Koan, the Old monk's behavior (pulling the young disciple's ear) is to 打禪機, while the Koan conveys 禪機. Do you know what I mean? ??

OK, I see. How about “drop a Zen hint”? In your sentence, that is the old monk pulled the young monk’s ear and dropped a Zen hint.

Thanks!

[muyongshi]

A kō•an (公案; Korean: gong'an, Japanese: kōan, Chinese: gōng-àn, Vietnammese: công án) is a story, dialogue, question, or statement in the history and lore of Chán (Zen) Buddhism, generally containing aspects that are inaccessible to rational understanding, yet that may be accessible to intuition. A famous kōan is, "Two hands clap and there is a sound; what is the sound of one hand?" (oral tradition, attributed to Hakuin Ekaku, 1686-1769, considered a reviver of the kōan tradition in Japan).

I am just curious as we were talking early insight, you said parable doesn't involve an action. I understand that in usage there is an action but according to this definition there is none. Is it just incomplete or what?

[insight]

You know, 禪機 may involve action, dialogue, conversation, attitude, question or story....it is it what makes the mind come into enlightenment and generally the one that gets the 禪機 comes to enlightenment intuitively and perceives all about the 7 th consciousness (manas) which hinders our rightminfulness.

So, according to the Yogacara school, everything we know, conceive, imagine or are aware of, we know through cognintion, including the notion that entities might exist independent of our cognition. The mind doesn't create the physical world, but it produces the interpretative categories through which we know and classify the physical world and it does this so seamlessly athat we mistake our interpretations for the world itself. Those interpretations, which are projections of our desires and anxieties, become obstructions preventing us from seeing what is acctually the case. In simple terms, we are blinded by our own self-interests, our own prejudices, our desires. This is an unenlightened cognition.

Generally, the koans have the 禪機 , the 禪機 (s) and to "drop a zen hint" is to make a person have the insight of the unenlightened cognition on his own, as he realizes it he will then have a right mindfulness and consequently enlightenment.

Is this clearer?

[gato]

打禅机 is a slang for 打“禅宗机锋“. 禅宗机锋 might be translated as Zen epiphany.

Looking at all the baidu hits for "打禅机", it seems that the word is often used derogatively, similar to "It's all Greek to me" or "Mumbo jumbo" in English. I didn't see any real Buddhist or academic web site using the term.

Insight, where was your quote from? Is it possible that the intent was to mock the practice of koan?

Here are some sites about 禅宗机锋 and 公安.

http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/16673328.html

有没有人知道什么叫机锋语?

http://www.guoxue.com/fxyj/cxss/cxss039.htm

第三章 公案颂古与禅门机锋

公案的灵魂是机锋。所谓“机”，是指感受某种具体情境所激发而活动的心灵的作用，或指契合佛教真理的关键、机宜；所谓“锋”，指活用禅机的敏锐状态。“机锋”指师家或禅僧与他人对机或接化学人时，常用寄意深刻、无迹可寻，乃至超越逻辑的语言来表现禅悟境界或勘验对方。

[insight]

Hi, Gato!

I do not totally agree with this link :

http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/16673328.html

有没有人知道什么叫机锋语?

This gives a bad connotation of 禪機, while I look upon it in a more positive meaning. As I mentioned before, it's to make a person to have an insight of his mind and to break the unelightened cognition. (At least, I see it more positively).

But I do agree with

http://www.guoxue.com/fxyj/cxss/cxss039.htm

第三章 公案颂古与禅门机锋

公案的灵魂是机锋。所谓“机”，是指感受某种具体情境所激发而活动的心灵的作用，或指契合佛教真理的关键、机宜；所谓“锋”，指活用禅机的敏锐状态。“机锋”指师家或禅僧与他人对机或接化学人时，常用寄意深刻、无迹可寻，乃至超越逻辑的语言来表现禅悟境界或勘验对方。

As far as I know, nobody has translated these terms into English yet. Would you like to be the first one?

[gato]

What I was getting at is that the use of 打 is a derogatory slang. I think it's derived from 打禅杖 (fight Zen battle), i.e. a Zen battle of verbal wits, and probably also used negatively.

Can you give us a link to a text where 打禅机 is used by a Zen Buddhism practitioner? As I said, most of the sites I found through baidu used it negatively. Thus, an English equivalent would also be a slang word (but one that doesn't have anything to do with Buddhism, or at least I don't know of any English slang that involves Buddhism).

[HashiriKata]

What I was getting at is that the use of 打 is a derogatory slang.

I think the "slang" usage is derived, and not the other way round. I've also noticed that the "slang" usage is not necessarily derogatory. I in fact attempted a definition of these terms earlier, in which I already noted the popular usage (= gato's "slang") of 打禪機:

禪機: the use of symbolic language or gestures by a Zen monk to teach Buddhism.

打禪機: to teach Buddhism by way of 禪機.

(Besides this meaning, I think 打禪機 also has a popular, non-Zen meaning.)

( http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/13268-the-buddhist-sutra-translationdiscussion-thread&page=2 )

[gato]

the "slang" usage is not necessarily derogatory

It's not necessarily derogatory, but most examples I found using baidu used it to imply "obfuscation", "mumbo jumbo." Again, 打禅机 doesn't seem to be word a Zen Buddhist practitioner would use, unless maybe as a joke.

[insight]

http://philosophy.sysu.edu.cn/2/jdjsx/info_Show.asp?ArticleID=368&ArticlePage=3

惠能至廣州法性寺，值印宗法師講涅槃經。時有風吹幡動，一僧曰：「風動。」，一僧曰：「幡動。」，議論不已，惠能進曰：「不是風動，不是幡動，仁者心動。」

The English translation of the above Koan:

At that time there were two bhikshus who were discussing the topic of the wind and a flag. One said, "The wind is moving." The other said,"The flag is moving." They argued incessantly. Whai-Nung stepped forward and said, "The wind is not moving, nor is the flag. Your minds, Kind Sirs, are moving."

This story itself is a Koan for the cultivators of the Way to chew at all time for enlightenment. While the reply of the Six Patriarch : "The wind is not moving, nor is the flag. Your minds, Kind Sirs, are moving." is to 打禪機 to the two monks. And this sentence alone contains 禪機.

So, I don't see what's wrong with 禪機. I see it in a more positive way....

.....

Well.....I don't think people use this word as a joke. (Excuse-me but I don't think so. May be some people might use it derogatively, but in Zen they use this to awaken the mind from unenlightened cognition)

[muyongshi]

So, I don't see what's wrong with 禪機. I see it in a more positive way....

I think what they mean is when used together with 打 it becomes a more of a negative connotation. More 口语. In my searches on the internet I saw this used a lot in more 口语 situations and to me seemed similar to a 讽刺 type of usage.

[gato]

禅机 is not derogatory (it's just short for 禅宗机锋), but my impression is that use of 打 is derogatory, as it's derived from 打禅杖 (fight a Zen battle). I don't think real Buddhists would consider themselves to be "fighting a battle of wits."

[insight]

Yes, it is more in colloquial usage. I guess why they use 打 because the person is deluded and unelightenend, you 打 (hit) this person, so that he will become enlightened.

According to the dictionary:

禪師啟悟弟子所用的技巧、言語，這類方法、言語，都超出邏輯的思惟範圍，非一般人所知，所以後引喻為只有當事人才知道的事情、對話。

http://140.111.34.46/cgi-bin/dict/GetContent.cgi?Database=dict&DocNum=114972&GraphicWord=yes&QueryString=禪機

[gato]

Are you a practicing Zen Buddhist, insight?

[insight]

Not really, but sort of

[muyongshi]

Not really, but sort of

Clear as mud...clear as mud.

[insight]

Hey, don't say that! You know why