Occupy Central 佔領中環

[Angelina]

Meh. Beijing-appointed, Washington-appointed, London-appoinded, old boss, new boss. 

Let's not forget how the Opium Wars started, which Crown was selling opium and got thousands of people addicted. Certainly Qing rulers did not have access to poppy fields. 

 

As far as I know, the British Empire got many people addicted to opium, then easily gained access to trade ports. 

 

Why did HK need anyone to give them freedom? Isn't freedom a basic human right?

[Lu]

Indeed. You can be sure that Taiwan is watching this very closely (and the Occupy/Scholarism people actually had contact with the Sunflower people to exchange strategies and such) and it's making the 一国两制 look very unattractive.

Actually now that I think of it, it seems rather short-sighted (or afraid?) to not just give the Hongkongnese their universal suffrage. Since by all accounts the majority, silent or no, is just for stability and doesn't mind Beijing rule, a Beijing-backed candidate would have a very good chance of winning free elections. Back the right horse, make sure you don't split the vote, fund good campaigns, pick a good candidate, and you can do as well as or better than the KMT is doing in Taiwan. (You can even try encouraging your opponents to splitting their vote. People who disagree with stuff often don't agree with each other either, so that shouldn't be too hard.) This would send a lot of useful (for the CCP) messages to Taiwan: look, you can keep your democracy and elections, you can even keep your ruling party, 一国两制 is really 两制.

Instead, you get Beijing refusing Hong Kong democracy, going back on its promises (or at least in the eyes of many). By teargassing the demonstrators they turned more Hongkongers against them, didn't stop the protests and made themselves look terrible in the eyes of all the world, especially Taiwan.

All in all not a very smart move. I've always seen the Chinese government as very patient in these matters: no matter if it takes 10 or 100 years, we'll bring all areas back to the motherland, and if it does take a hundred years that's still in time. But now it looks like they're trying to push things.

[Angelina]

'Back the right horse' is the right metaphor to use when talking about HK. 

[skylee]

Some updates -

1. Classes of secondary and primary schools and kindergartens in the affected area have resumed.

2. Protestors in the occupied sites have significantly reduced. Yet many main roads are still blocked, causing traffic jams.

3. Some pro-democracy figures / organisation (eg the HK Bar Association and the retired Cardinal Chan) have criticised the student leaders for (a) slighting the rule of law, and (b) not agreeing to end the movement at an appropriate time.

4. The government has just officially called off the planned talk with student leaders.

5. An Australian newspaper has alleged that CY Leung, the unpopular Chief Executive of HK, took money which he shouldn't have from an Australian firm after he had taken up the top post.

[gato]

6.  Legislators aligned with the protesters are planning to use procedural rules, when available, to block government spending bills

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/10/world/asia/hong-kong-protests.html?_r=0

Mr. Leong, the Civic Party leader, spoke at the news conference on behalf of a coalition of pro-democracy parties, saying they would use their numbers on the finance committee and two of its subcommittees to block all government spending bills except “very urgent, noncontroversial, livelihood policies that require an immediate financial provision.”

 

The pro-democracy parties comprise a minority in the legislature but could delay government action on many issues, although Hong Kong’s mini-constitution, the Basic Law, gives considerable powers over spending directly to the executive branch.

[Morten]

Are there any polls on how many Hong Kongers support the protests (For/Against) and how many Hong Kongers support the fight for democracy but not the actual methods. (what percentage of the Hong Kong population is against Beijing) 

[roddy]

“Legislators aligned with the protesters are planning to use procedural rules, when available, to block government spending bills”

Ouch, sounds like they've caught the American strain of democracy.

[gato]

Are there any polls on how many Hong Kongers support the protests (For/Against) and how many Hong Kongers support the fight for democracy but not the actual methods. (what percentage of the Hong Kong population is against Beijing)

 

The Hong Kong University public polling site has a survey from Sept below.  The first is on whether they agree with a "nomination committee" to filter candidates.  The second is on whether they agree with Occupy Central as a protest method.  More details are available on the site.

 

p.s. It should be mentioned that 44% of the respondents were over 50 years old (page 5 of http://hkupop.hku.hk/english/report/mpCEnOCCw6/crosstab.pdf).  Seems quite high.  

 

http://hkupop.hku.hk/english/report/mpCEnOCCw6/index.html

 

 

[Lu]

Apparently the poll was conducted by calling randomised phone numbers. Not sure if that included mobile phones, but if not, that might explain the high rate of older respondents.

[skylee]

OMG! To do it at Tiananmen is too dangerous!

天 安 門 廣 場 未 見 有 人 持 雨 傘 聲 援 香 港 (http://rthk.hk/rthk/news/expressnews/20141011/news_20141011_55_1044762.htm)

 

由 內 地 網 民 組 織 的 「 佔 領 天 安 門 」 ， 計 劃 今 日 上 午 10 時 至 下 午 5 時 ， 佔 領 天 安 門 ， 聲 援 香 港 佔 領 行 動 ， 參 與 人 士 會 手 持 雨 傘 作 識 別 。

現 場 所 見 ， 天 安 門 如 常 有 武 警 及 公 安 巡 邏 ， 遊 客 進 入 廣 場 要 經 過 安 檢 ， 但 保 安 未 有 明 顯 加 強 。 大 批 遊 客 在 天 安 門 內 遊 覽 ， 暫 時 未 見 有 人 手 持 雨 傘 。

組 織 表 示 ， 如 果 廣 場 被 嚴 密 封 鎖 ， 參 加 者 可 轉 到 王 府 井 一 間 連 鎖 快 餐 店 外 集 合 。

[skylee]

Some updates -

1. The Police have gradually cleared up the roads taken up by protesters. Confrontations broke out whenever such clearance happened.

2. Next Media (Apple Daily) has been surrounded / attacked by mobs / protesters allegedly made up of triad members and people hired from Shenzhen across the border. Next Media has successfully got a court injunction (on grounds of infringement of press freedom) to stop them blocking operations at Apple Daily's offices but the injunction does not seem to work.

3. Top Mainland officials in HK said that the recent scandal about the Chief Executive CY Leung (accepting money from the Australian firm UGL) was not news. Leung has denied any wrong doing.

4. So far the HK Government has not budged as far as the electoral arrangements are concerned. Nor would the Central Government.

 

Beijing won't cede to protests: report

The Communist Party believes it has offered enough concessions to Hong Kong in the past, and will give no ground to pro-democracy protests because it wants to avoid setting a precedent for reform on the mainland, sources have told the Reuters news agency.

Three sources with ties to the central government said that Beijing believed it had already been tolerant enough of the protests.

Asked if the central government will make minor concessions, a source with leadership ties told Reuters: "Dialogue (with protest leaders) is already a concession."

The SAR government agreed to meet student protest leaders last week to discuss the crisis, but it called off the talks when it became apparent the two sides were still far apart.

A second source added: "The central government's bottom line will not change", referring to the vetting of candidates for chief executive.

"Universal suffrage is a sovereign issue. The central government will not give in," said another source.

"If the protests continue, it would be Hong Kong's loss, not the mainland's. Hong Kong people would suffer."

However, Beijing is also said to have decided that there will not be a bloody crackdown on protesters here.

One source said the PLA will only be dispatched as a last resort if there is widespread killing, arson and looting.

[Basil]

Britain really let Hong Kong down in the deal struck with Beijing back in the 80s. One country two systems, such a farce; allowing us to walk away feeling righteous, and giving Beijing enough time to understand and control Hong Kong so it could be strong enough to undermine the deal completely at its own pace. 

 

There will likely be no real self determination in Hong Kong without bloodshed combined with similar protests on the mainland. China can effectively control one disturbance, so it looks like this time the students will fail; but it might struggle to control 10 simultaneous protests.

 

A cursory look at weibo and other media shows a number of mainlanders calling for HK citizens to be 'shot like dogs' or similar. How stupid they are. 'My country right or wrong.' Despicable mindless nationalism.

[gato]

It turns that the UK government was considering granting HK self-rule in the 1950s. Remember that was an era of decolonization, when many British colonies or governed territories became independent (such as India, Pakistan, Singapore, Malaysia).

But Beijing, through Premier Zhou En-lai, told the British government that it would consider self-rule for Hong Kong a hostile act and if it happened, it would invade and take over.

 

http://www.unicoenterprise.com/blog/the-secret-history-of-hong-kongs-stillborn-democracy.html

The secret history of Hong Kong’s stillborn democracy

Take for instance this document, which describes what British lieutenant-colonel Kenneth Cantlie relayed to British prime minister Harold MacMillan about his conversation with premier Zhou Enlai in early 1958:

In it, Zhou says Beijing would regard allowing Hong Kong’s people to govern themselves as a “very unfriendly act,” says Cantlie. Not long thereafter, in 1960, Liao Chengzhi, China’s director of “overseas Chinese affairs,” told Hong Kong union representatives that China’s leaders would “not hesitate to take positive action to have Hong Kong, Kowloon and the New Territories liberated” if the Brits allowed self-governance:

These documents—which, perhaps unbeknownst to the People’s Daily, Hong Kong journalists have been busily mining —show that not only were the Brits mulling granting Hong Kong self-governance in the 1950s; it was the Chinese government under Mao Zedong who quashed these plans, threatening invasion. And the very reason Mao didn’t seize Hong Kong in the first place was so that the People’s Republic could enjoy the economic fruits of Britain’s colonial governance.

This revelation suggests that the Chinese government’s current claims of democratic largesse are somewhat disingenuous, says Ho-Fung Hung, sociology professor at Johns Hopkins University.

“The whole argument that Beijing’s offer is better than the British’s—it no longer holds,” he tells Quartz. “Beijing can no longer say there were bad things during colonial times because it’s now been revealed that it was part of the force that maintained the status quo in Hong Kong. Beijing is partially responsible for the lack of democracy in Hong Kong before 1997.”

[Basil]

Well they didn't invade. But they did instigate, fund and incite communist riots in Hong Kong in the 1960s, oh and played with the water supply to Kowloon as well.

[imron]

Take for instance this document, which describes what British lieutenant-colonel Kenneth Cantlie relayed to British prime minister Harold MacMillan

And lieutenant-colonel Cantlie is sure to always tell the truth

[roddy]

It's quite easy to imagine that if Britain and the people of Hong Kong had had a free hand, that Hong Kong would be more or less another Singapore. It's also kind of irrelevant, as what's important is what's actually happening now, no? 

[Lu]

Assuming it's true that Britain wanted to decolonise HK and Beijing wouldn't have it, that means that it's really China's fault that HK didn't get decolonised earlier, instead of it being thanks to China that HK got decolonised in 1997. That's a huge difference. If/when this becomes widespread knowledge in HK, I imagine it will piss off people there even more. And since it's unlikely to become widespread knowledge in China, the Chinese would see the Hongkongnese as even more ungrateful.

[Basil]

It's not always a case of 'dig up the past and all you get is dirty', the past, especially recent decades, helps put the present in context. He who controls the past...

[skylee]

The past is the past. But it is not irrelevant when it is used to justify what is happening now.

[gato]

One of the arguments used against the protesters by mainlanders is "why didn't you ask the British for democracy", so the history is relevant.

I can see why Beijing didn't want the British to grant HK democracy. Democracy would have meant independence, if not legally, then in fact -- like Taiwan today. Beijing wouldn't have been tolerate that without a fight. It's either your rule, or our rule -- but no self-rule, no independence.